9 month old mommies, a question: UPDATE p2, gotten worse

[mini me]

you've probably already done this Mashi, but my IRL friend had problems with her LO taking the bottle cos she needed to up the teat size .. the LO just got p*ed off trying to suck through a small hole so gave up. Just a thought ... if not this, then good luck with the next stage formula (mine transitioned really well - did have a different taste, but she didn't mind)

[* Paula *]

Huge hugs hun 

I would definitely chat to your pharmacist about the vitimin drops and see what they suggest.  If there is one for your lo's age, then I cannot see them doing any harm.

[*Liz*]

Just wondering - do you think your lo might be developing a bit of a solids preference in part due to the type of formula he needs to take? I know he has been on the same one for ages but these hypoallergenic formulas really do taste a bit strange and it isn't unusual for them to get a bit of a 'taste' for something different. When we were trying to get my lo on neocate (which is the most foul tasing thing I have ever had the misfortune to try) we were told to keep putting formula in his food so he doesn't realise how vile it is!!! I think this is in part why they give flavoured neocate to babies once they hit 12 months, as otherwise with their new found knowledge of how nice other things are, they just won't take it.

My lo bottle refuses when his reflux is poorly controlled as well, but I assume with the right formula and diet you got that side of things sorted.

Just an idea for you  .

[Mashi]

I think that it is more that he has developed a taste for solids and can't be bothered with milk anymore! It takes precious time out of his exploring agenda!

When I got the script for the Nutramigen 2 the other day the GP suggested dropping to 2 bottles to ensure he gets a full 16 ounces into him, rather than trying for 3x8 ounces and him only taking 6 in the morn, 2 at lunch and 6 at night.  Am thinking about trying that. Not sure I am happy with it though. She also suggested vitamin drops, but when I went to the chemist today they were out, and she told me I should ask for them on script anyway as they are about a tenner. We have an appt with the dietician soon so I will speak to her.

Thanks for the help everyone!

[* Paula *]

Mashi, it might be worth trying 2 x bottles, you don't have anything to loose.  My DS was around this age when he dropped to 2 bottles and he did quite well.  You could even try offering 2 x 9oz bottles to give him the opportunity to take a bit more.

Good luck hgun, keep us posted on how you get on.

[Mashi]

Paula, that is what the chemist suggested today when I was chatting with her about going up to the Nutr #2.  I figure it is the same principle as the 4 to 3 drop, and I didn't hesitate with that at all, and saw how well it went.  But, for this 3 to 2 drop I am worried. Our bottles are only 8oz bottles (Dr B's and they don't do 9oz, have tried the Avent 9oz bottles but it is a whole different "sucking" system and DS couldn't do it!). So, that would only be 16 oz in a day, which is still really low, no?  I can't find places to hide it in cooking, maybe 1/2 ounce here or there but that's not enough to make up the difference.  I thought about swapping his lunch bottle to after his nap, but he is sooooo wired after his nap he eats his snack "on the run" because can't sit still for more than 30 seconds!! 

We started on the stage 2 tonight before bed, was all prepared for him to hate the new taste, but he actually drank 7 oz of it without batting an eye. Usually DH has to employ tricks and bribery to get past 3 or 4 ounces.  So, perhaps the new taste will keep him happy for a few days? 

Should I just settle for 16 ounces a day and be happy with vitamin drops?

Fingers crossed he passes his milk challenge in a few months and can give him yogurt, cheese etc!!!!

[* Paula *]

Ok how about this.  Make 2 x 8 oz bottles for a few days and see how it goes, if it looks like he could take more, you can always make an extra bit in the avent bottles, and then transfer it to his DR Browns bottle.

You could also use this opportunity to try and master the Sippy cup, and make a fe extra oz, and let your lo practice drinking from it?  The extra oz can just be a bonus if he takes it. 

[mini me]

you can always make an extra bit in the avent bottles, and then transfer it to his DR Browns bottle.

This is what we did quite often - I made the whole bottle 8oz (Tommee Tippee) and then transfered another 1oz from another bottle (there is often a bit of room left in the top after shaking the formula and letting it settle a while).

Fab idea re the sippy too .. good luck!

[Mashi]

Thanks for the tips ladies.

Problem is, it's getting worse.  The first day on the Nutramigen 2 went well, 17 ounces, so we thought it was a problem solved and that the new taste got him interested again. 

It's been downhill from there slowly and steadily -- today was the worst....a grand total of 7.5 ounces of milk through the entire day.  Managed to get 2 ounces of water into him over the course of the day. He's totally dehydrated, waking up in the morning with his nappies almost completely dry even. 

Have done it all - gone to 2 daytime bottles at bkfst and bed only (today did 3.5 at bkfst and 4.0 at bed), offered in a sippy cup, bought a new sippy cup with a soft spout that is really more bottle-ish than cup-ish and tried that, have tried it hot, warm, cold. Teething gel and hour before + 30 min before + right before, calpol 45 minutes before, before nap, after nap, before solids, after solids..... basically, he doesn't want milk.

I am worried about severe iron deficiency, calcium deficiency, dehydration, etc etc and it's really upsetting me. 

My only last thing is to cut out his solids for a few days.  What's worse, no solids or no milk?  If I cut it down to bare bones how much should I give him?  For instance, on a regular night for dinner he would eat a 2 inch piece of salmon with 2oz of applesauce, half of an avocado and 1oz of creamed corn.  Should I cut down to just 2oz of applesauce? Same for all of his meals - just cut them to 6month old portions, like 1oz per meal?  What is a decent meal for an 8month old? He loves his food! 

Any other possible solutions you've not thought of yet ladies? Please!!!!?

[mini me]

Sorry to read this Mashi ... I was going to suggest the same - to cut out food for a few days ... fluids are far more important at the moment. Have you had him checked at the docs for no other underlying probs? They do say that "food is for fun for the 1st year" so he would get his  nutrients from his formuls instead. Keep us posted {{{HUGS}}}

[*Liz*]

I don't know the answer - but (((Hugs))) sounds really hard. DS often bottle strikes on me due to his reflux (which is still a mess even though he's 8 mths) and refuses milk up to the point of dehydration. It always seems that he starts drinking again himself just as I am starting to get really worried - and I've found the more I push the less he accepts. But its a different situation as my DS takes next to no solids.

Perhaps cut back for a day and see what happens? Especially if he needs fluids. Does he take much water while this rides through? Sometimes I even syringe Jacob water when I am really worried. A balanced diet which I know your DS has will mean he is fine on less milk than some other babies - but he needs the hydration and fluids. He can get the iron from food, and admittedly the calcium is a little trickier due to MPSI - but it won't happen in just a few weeks so you have loads of time to coax him back before you need to worry about deficiency.

I just remembered that when DS was trialling neocate I was advised to make food out of formula when I could to avoid development of taste preferance. I just wondered if you could use some of the ideas to get a bit more formula hidden away in there? I think it should work for nutramigen if it works for neocate - there are recipes for rice pudding, custard and ice cream. Oh and milkshake too!!

There's the link
http://www.neocate.co.uk/aaa_neocate/9959-cooking-with-neocate-neocate-thick-shake.html

Sorry if you have seen all this already though and more ((Hugs))

[Mashi]

Thanks for the tip Liz. Just FYI the link doesnt seem to open up to recipes but I googled for neocate recipes after and got a good booklet that they produce. (No custard, rice pudding or milkshake, but am going to keep looking after dinner).

One really good idea that it has is using the formula POWDER in LO's food and not made-up formula.  So, you can add a scoop of powder to a puree and it won't turn into mucky messy gloop that they won't eat.  Can't see why it would be any different for Nutramigen than Neocate?  Going to talk to the dietician (I think we see her June 4) and see what she says. 

Anyone ever done that before?  It would be an easy way to get a scoop of milk into him. Doesn't combat the dehydration, but by putting water in a bottle and leaving it out all day for him to drink it when he wants, I have been getting 4 - 5 ounces in him in a day. I've always been against anything but milk in a bottle, but decided that dehydration is a bit worse than bottle addiction 
So, the extra ounces of water with an extra scoop of milk powder here and there could be a potential solution.

[*Liz*]

Oh seems to work when I click it - then recipes are down the left hand side - I seem to have linked into the fruit milkshake!!
I'll try again just in case
http://www.neocate.co.uk/aaa_neocate/9946-cooking-with-neocate.html
Otherwise go to the parents section of the neocate website and there is a link called 'cooking with neocate'
And again their are tabs down the left - I promise there is custard, milshake, ice cream and rice pudding  .

I have a IRL friend who's lo has a milk allergy on nutramigen after she refused the awful neocate - and her dietician gave her the neocate recipes and told her it would work for nutramigen. I think she's done some of the cakes successfully.

I don't see why you couldn't use the water ALREADY in the food to mix the formula as that would be what you were doing. Would boost the nutrients and calcium, but I guess you would just need to make up the ozs of water elsewhere else could get dehydrated as the 'salts' etc too concentrated. Which is what you already said  sorry.

[* Paula *]

Huge hugs Mashi,

I am so sorry you are going through such a rough time.

Just so you know that when they are teething, it can make their reflux flare up, so he could be uncomfortable due to this too.

Have you tried some ice pops?  They are nice and cold for his gums, and it is a good way to get some fluids into him?

[Mashi]

Got it Liz  - when you post the link it automatically takes you to the home page but by copying and pasting it worked. I ** CAN NOT** believe the abundance of recipes!! I am keeping DS gluten free as well and they are all gluten free low allergy recipes. AMAZING, if I wasn't so exhausted I would be baking rusks and biscuits right now!!! Thanks - will start adding a bit of powder to some of his food and try some of these recipes as well.  Even an extra scoop or two of powder will help out loads!!!!!