Please help wean night feeds - nearly 9 months, never STTN and still wakes twice

[shresmummy]

Hi Sherry, Hope you're having a good weekend. So I've been keeping a note of what DD"s been up to the past few days and I've certainly noticed that getting her to nap and go to bed at her usual A times is getting harder some days but not others. I dont' think it's jet lag anymore. I've tried to keep one thing consistent that is wake her up from the AM nap at 12, and PM nap at 4 and have bedtime at 7. But the rest inbetween are a bit of mish-mash!

I'm posting our routines from the past few days and if you could take a look at them and give me some advice as to which A times to change, whether I should change them at all, or what I should try and do. The other thing is once I fight through the nonsense and the playing at the time I"m putting her down, and finally get her to sleep, she sleeps until I wake her up at those times.

Wednesday
Wake - 6:30AM,
AM nap - 10:35 - 12 (4hr A time, I woke her)
PM nap 2:55/3 - 4 (3hr A time, I woke her)
bedtime 7:20 (3hr 20 min A time)
NWs - 11:20 (settled quickly) and 4:30 (took at least 20 mins, cried) wakings, gave water,

Thursday
Wake - 6:30
AM nap - 10:40 - 12:15 (4hr 20 min A time cos we were out, I woke her)
PM nap - 3:15 - 4 - only 45 mins (3hr A time)
bedtime 7:20 (slept without playing too much for once!)
NWs - ST till 5, woke and cried heaps, only settled with her milk feed. Hunger? Then slept till 7 when I woke her

Friday
Wake - 7
AM nap - 10:55 - 12:05 (~4 hr A time, I woke her)
PM nap - 3:15 - 4:05 (3hr 10 mins A time, I woke her..tried to get her down for nap since 2:55. Kept playing!!)
bedtime - 7:40!! (tried since 7:15. Initially kept playing then by 7:30 got cranky and wouldn't settle until I held until calm). OT perhaps by the end?

Since the best night we had was thursday, should I reduce her PM nap to 45 mins? or perhaps increase the AM A time a bit more like I did on thursday (6:10 - 10:40, but would that be too much)? That's why I let her sleep till 12:15 that day.

The fact that she does sleep at each time until I wake her up shows that she must be tired enough to nap right? So I"m a bit confused..

What do you think?
Take care and look forward to hearing from you!
Priya

[sherry lynn]

Hey Priya - It sounds like you are full on in the middle of the 2-1 switch now. Wow, her nights have gotten better, right? I thought this post was over all very positive - except for the fact that she is different every day

You should be very proud of yourself. You have found something that works great for her.

Your Thursday routine is almost identical to the routine that I had the best luck on with Lyle for awhile. Then we had to switch to doing 45 min in the morning to get rid of an EW problem we were having. No, scratch that, he started refusing the PM nap, that's why I switched them And that worked really well too.

Remember to stay flexible. Remember that she will play around sometimes. I remember one time Lyle played around for an hour before he went to sleep. I didn't think he was going to, I thought he would start crying to get out at some point, like he usually did, but sure enough he went down in the end 15 min isn't long to play at all. I was going to suggest increasing A times until I saw how long she is going in the morning. I think that's probably her max about now.

Honestly, at this point I think some nights are just better than others. You can try to duplicate it and see if she does better on that, but 4h20m in a lot for this age. You don't want her to spiral into OT.

I think you are right about Friday, she started out UT and ended up OT. I hate that. Next time I would wake her at 4 like you've been doing. And stick with 7:20. Did you realize you had cut 10 min off her A time?

Great job!!!

[shresmummy]

Hi Sherry, how are you doing? We are ok, except I have started part time work (mon and tues mornings) and DD is in a childcare close to my work, for those few hours. But that has seemed to totally thrown our routine out of whack which I guess I had to expect.

She is absolutely refusing to nap there, I'm sure it's because it's a new place, new people etc. But yesterday and today she woke up in the morning around 6:50 and didn't nap as usual after 4hr A time, instead only napped when we got home. Yesterday she napped from 12:15 - 2:40! (after 5.5hr A time!! oh geez!) and today she's doing the same thing. Refused her AM nap at child care and only slept at (12:45 - it's now 2:40) (that's after nearly 5.5 hr again!)

I'm going to try and do the 2 naps again tomorrow and the rest of the week. I'm hoping she will settle down in child care and nap as usual but perhaps for those 2 days she might only have 1 nap? Oh dear. I hope we don't end up in a bad OT cycle.

TO avoid that yesterday I tried to put her down for maybe a 10-15 min catnap in the evening around 4 - 4:15 becuase I knew she couldn't last till bedtime from 2:40 even if it's an early bedtime. The catnap worked but she only slept for maybe 5 mins or so. She wasn't tired enough but I held her and she nodded off a bit, and then an early bedtime around 6:45. But any earlier and all her meals get messed up!!

Do you have any suggestions for how to handle this? I suppose the one positive is she's making up her daytime quota of sleep, but in 1 big hit. The big question though is after 5.5 hr A time in the morning, then a 2hr 20 min nap, can she handle the A time until bedtime? which would at least be 4 hr? Or does she need a small 10/15 min nap in between? Or would that ruin nighttime sleep?

Last night was Ok, but still a bit interrupted with brief wakings (bedtime - 6:45 PM, Nws - 8:50, 3:30 and 5:15 Am, then I woke her at 6:50AM).

Yikes!! i wonder how tonight will go.

[sherry lynn]

Priya - I think that is AWESOME!!! She has grown so much, what a big girl. Lots of LO go through that issue with daycare. I'm so happy that is she taking one solid nap for you on daycare days. She's not getting OT, or she would take 1h10m-1h25m naps. So I hope she continues to do so well for you.

I think since you are giving her two naps on the days she is home that she will be ok.

As far as the catnap goes I think you just have to play that one by ear. You'll have to see how she is coping. We had the opposite problem, I could not get him to catnap no matter what if he had a long nap earlier in the day. So, if she seems very tired and that she won't cope, then get her to take a small little nap anyway you can to get her to bedtime. A few short minutes shouldn't matter much to her nighttime sleep.

On on nap days I found that he was able to do about 5 hours of A time in the evening, but at first he was very very tired just like she is. Now he does 5 hours in the evening no problem.

[shresmummy]

Hi Sherry, thanks for the encouragement! I was feeling so down and worried yesterday, but I guess i have to realise that she has grown up and perhaps isn't as sensitive to OT anymore?

Well last night was pretty good given her long A time. So she had another 2hr 10 min nap yesterday after daycare. SHe woke up crying but i think that may have been due to hunger, bcause I"m still trying to play around with food times on daycare days. THey said she had lunch there so I had just given her a bottle, but obviously it wasn't enough. Anyway she had an extra bottle when she woke from the nap.

I tried to put her down for a catnap but I think you're right she wasn't tired enough. Didn't really sleep so I gave up trying after 15 mins and put her to bed at 6:50. She slept pretty well.

She still has these brief wakings though, usually around 11:30-12:30 PM anytime, and again around 5-5:30 AM. Some night also around 3ish. This happens every few nights, not just on the daycare days. Do they eventually grow out of these and they stop? Sometimes I give her water, a cuddle and then she goes back to sleep. Sometimes she doesn't want the water.

So if on the daycare day she has a 2hr nap that's OK then? I didn't realise that 1hr 10- 1hr 25 min naps were a sign of OT.

Today we're at home and she's having a good AM nap. Thank goodness! Let's see how the PM one goes and whether she's back up to her old tricks

[sherry lynn]

Be weary of that good AM nap at this age. I only say that because they are more likely to reject the PM nap with those. But I suspect that because of nursery days she might be ok with them.

The wakings is so hard to answer. We still get them from time to time. I don't know if its a spirited thing or what.

the book Raising Your Spirited Child, mentions spirited kids having all times of sleep "issues" so I just chalk it up to that and try not to AP during the wakings.

1hr 10- 1hr 25 min naps are a killer for many people during the transition. The hard thing with this length is they are not always OT, so you just have to play it by circumstance. If it's after 3.5 hours A time and they wake happy, then no it's not OT. But if it's after 5.5-6 hours A time and they wake screaming, then yes, it is Does that make sense.

I hope it continues to go well. She is growing up   Exciting and a little sad too, right. I can't believe Lyle is almost 2.

[shresmummy]

Hi, you predicted what was going to happen yesterday pefectly! I was so happy that she was having a great AM nap and she absolutely refused her PM nap! She had 4hr A time then her long AM nap, which was just under 1hr 30 mins. It was 12:20 by this time. So as I used to before she started child care last week, I put her down for her PM nap around 3:15 (after 3hr A time).

She refused and was still playing so I gave her a bit more A time and eventually by the time I could get her to sleep it was 4:20!! Then I was a bit stuck, so I just allowed her 30 mins as a catnap and then woke her at 4:50. She was happy and went to bed easily at 7:30 and slept until 5 AM!! Had her usual brief waking and then back to sleep and wake at 6:40.

But this morning was a bit surprising also. I tried for the AM nap as usual at 10:45 (after 4hr A time) but she didn't sleep until 11:10!! Then woke up crying at 11:50 Was she OT perhaps? I patted and she did go back to sleep but I'm not sure when to let her sleep until. Should I wake her at 12:30 or she might refuse her PM nap again. But since she woke up crying I am also tempted to let her sleep until she wakes happy in case she was OT earlier.

How confusing! I know what you mean. I'm really excited she's growing up and talking so much now and doing all sorts of interesting things..but definitely sad that she's no longer a little baby that wants to cuddle with me! Makes me want to have another one...but I might wait just a tad more!! Or else I will definitely go nuts

[sherry lynn]

I'm sure it's too late to really give you advice, but I would have let her sleep. I think she started out UT because she had such a wonderful night. But then got herself OT in the end.

Then in the afternoon just know that you will probably end up with a catnap and that's ok. Lots of moms do it that way.

I'm glad yesterday worked out well. I'm so happy for you that she STTN, pretty much

I think that long wonderful stretch of sleep through off her normal pattern a little.

She is def. in the 2-1 transition now. I think we should start a new post now, don't you. she's not 9 months anymore

[shresmummy]

Haha..you're right..we definitely should start a new post! I can't believe this one's carried on for nearly 4 months!! Wow! So yesterday I also did let her sleep. She slept until 12:50, and then woke up happy-ish. She was hungry though because she slept for so long in the morning! Anyway she did have a PM nap from 3:45 until 4:30-ish. She was stirring and I thought I should wake her anyway.

Then I tried a 7:30 bedtime, she slept very easily but she had an awful night I"m not sure whether it was an UT or an OT night or something else. She woke at 9 very briefly, crying and settled with a few pats. Then again around 12:30ish, then again around 2:30ish and finally woke around 5:50. I tried to see if she would go back to sleep. She was a bit drowsy but in the end decided it was time to start the day around 6:15. So I was forced to as well!

Today so far:

Wake - 6;15
Am nap - 10:40 - 12:10 (woke on her own)
PM nap - 3:30ish - I have decided to wake her around 4:15ish and try for a 7:30 bedtime again.

I'm not sure why she had such a bad night. Do you think it might be due to her daytime sleep? perhaps it was too much?

Well I"m going to start a new link soon. I'll post the thread below!

[sherry lynn]

I think she was UT because her A times are much higher than 3 hours right now. We would have had the same thing happen in this house with that routine

I'm guessing she might need around 3h15m after a 45 min nap? Maybe even 3.5. So tonight's routine should work a little better I think. Hopefully anyways.

good luck

[shresmummy]

Hi Sherry, hope you had a good weekend! We had fun with DD's first birthday party! It was just a small group of people, but we had lots of fun and DD had a few bites of my icecream for the first time! She loved it

I started a new post and just wanted to put down the link to it.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=155567.0

Yesterday was a shocking day, just when I wanted her to have a good Am nap before the birthday lunch. She kept crying every 2 mins or either playing and refused to fall asleep until almost 11:50!!! that's nearly 5 hr A time! anyway I've written down the details in my new thread.

I'd love to hear what you think.
Take care and see you over on the other thread!
Luv,
Priya

[shresmummy]

Hi Sherry,

Hope you're doing well.

I think one of the sleep moderators might have moved my post so I"m not sure whether the earlier link I gave you would still work.

anyway, here's the new one.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=155567.msg1737017#msg1737017

Take care and I look forward to hearing from you. I"m still in the middle of trying to sort out the best routine for DD over on the other thread.

I'd really appreciate any advice you might have too.

Hope Lyle is doing well.

Luv,
riya