Please help wean night feeds - nearly 9 months, never STTN and still wakes twice

[shresmummy]

Hi, my DD is a spirited little bubs and is now nearly 9 months old. DD used to have major issues with naps (used to be a chronic short napper) and it's only very recently that she has started taking at least 1 long nap during the day. DD is an independent sleeper and sleeps reasonably during the night but has never STTN yet.

DD is BF and she usually wakes up at least 2 times for feeds and I"m just wondering whether she's old enough now to be able to start to wean her off the night feeds. I still find it hard to tell for sure whether her NWs are out of genuine hunger or habitual.

She used to have a pattern of going to bed around 6:45 or 7 PM, then would sleep up until anywhere between 12:30 and 2:30 before waking and then again wake around 4:30/5. Her feeding varies - some night she feeds really well at both feeds but other nights she feeds well at only one of the feeds but not the other one, and still on some other nights she doesn't feed well at both. Lately however, she has been waking earlier for her first NF after going to bed (around 11ish, then again around 3ish).

I want to try and wean her off at least one of the feeds and then gradually the other one too and would love some help and suggestions as to how to do this. I've posted our EASY routine below from the past couple of days and nights. Mostly DD takes a long AM nap and a shorter PM nap, but really DD's routine varies depending on her mood each day!! I guess this is where her spirited side comes in!

Sunday-Monday
NW - bedtime 6:50 PM, woke 10:30 fed resettled, then woke again around 3:30ish fed and resettled. Wake up at 6:45 AM

E - 6:45 BF to start the day + 7:30 solids
A - 6:45 - 10:25
S - 10:25 - 12

E - 12:10 BF + 12:45 lunch + 3:10 BF (only RB - I tend to split the BF before and after PM nap)
A - 12 - 3:30
S - 3:30 - 4:10

E - 4:15 LB BF + 5 dinner + 6:45 EBM bottle before bed
A - 4:10 - 7:05
S - 7 - see NWs below

NWs - woke briefly at 9 crying but resettled in a few mins without feed. Then woke 11:30 fed and resettled, up at 5 fed and resettled. Woke 7 AM

E - 7 BF (but not much) + 7:45 solids
A - 7 - 10:45
S - 10:46 - 11:30

E - 11:40 BF + 12 lunch + 2:10 LB BF
A - 11:25 - 2:30
S - 2:30 - 3:40

E - 3:45 RB BF + 4:45 dinner + 6:30 EBM+BF
A - 3:40 - 6:40
S - 6:40 - it's now 10 PM.

I think DD is getting enough feeds during the day and is on 3 solid meals. But still she wakes up twice during the night and I'm not sure whether I should do something extra during the day if she really is needing the extra feed or just try and wean her off the NF.

I don't really know where to start or how to do this and would love any help and suggestions as to how I go about doing this.

Thanks heaps!

[~inbalance~]

Hi shresmummy!  My LO is the same age and we're in a similar boat.  I think at this point, if you feel she is getting enough during the day (i.e. 3 solids meals plus 4 good BF/bottles) then there is no reason why you should continue feeding at night.  Over here we're down to one and occasionally two a night too, and I think we're gearing up to drop them cold turkey this weekend.  Your LO is most likely waking out of habit because she knows she will get fed (like mine!)

Actually, Beata started a support thread for dropping night feeds, it's in the night wakings forum I believe and I think it's called Quitting Night Feeds?  Come on over and talk to some other moms doing the same thing!

You could wean the feeds gradually if you think that is the best way.  To do this, I would start by setting a time for one feed, say resolve to NOT feed before 2am (if she wakes before then, do whatever is necessary to settle her back to sleep).  If she wakes after 2am, go ahead and feed her, but then not again after that.  I did it that way for awhile and it really helped get down to only one feed.  But unfortunately I find that as long as there is still at least one feed, LOs will still wake because they know there's still the opportunity to eat.  For us, I'm almost certain that when I finally get the courage to wean that final feed, it's only a matter of time before he starts sleeping through.  It will be rough for a few, but ultimately for the best.

Anyways, hope that helps a little!  Maybe we'll see you over on the other thread! 

[LucySol]

Hi again! sorry you are still having problems.At 9 months i went cold turkey on all night feeds.i did have a couple of rough nights but not as bad as i thought they would be.i just had to find a way to resettle her without feeding her.For us WIWO worked best tho this is meant for older babies it worked gr8 for us and by the 3rd night i would hear her wake but would just settle herself off again.PupD was not for us,my dd is spirited too and PUPD just would wind her up more,as would ssshpat but you will have to find a way to settle her that works for both of you.
she is breastfed right? i was advised to have dh get up with her during the night while we weaned the feeds but again this wouldnt work for us cos he has no patience and i know he would give up and rock her back to sleep!
i hope you find help this time and you crack this!
hth
Lucy xxx

[shresmummy]

Hi! Thanks heaps for your responses. Martina, I will check out the other thread you mentioned. I did briefly see it the other day. Last night DD woke up at 11:30 and I fed her, then she went back to sleep and woke again at 3:30 crying heaps!! I fed her again Then she was up all chatty and wouldn't go back to sleep until almost 4:30. She must have gone back to sleep at some point because she woke me up at 6:45 this morning!!

Lucy, How's Daisy going with the A times and the EW!! Hope you are having some success! What does WIWO mean actually? and how do you do it? DH is also the same..haha he will not be much help because he can't stand to hear DD cry!! hehe

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Many moms also find that if you consolidate the feeds to only after naps (instead of twice, like you're doing) the babies actually take more in and are able to start going longer stretches at night - might help with the NWs.  Although just so you know, one feed overnight at 9 months if breastfed is fairly common.  Good luck!

(And WIWO is walk in/walk out - it's basically going into the room for cries, not mantra, but you don't stay for put down, instead you tell her to go to sleep or whatever, then leave for a moment, and go back in and do it again, and leave again until she settles). http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

[shresmummy]

So I don't know if last night was just a one off and that it might get worse...but DD settled without a feed at her 2nd NW!! But the other thing I"m not sure about is whether her NWs are a result of a need to increase A times during the day or perhaps teething? I can't tell for sure.

Last night she went to bed at 7:10, woke crying briefly at both 9 and 10 and settled quickly within a couple of minutes after comforting. Then she woke at 12:30 and I fed her, she BF reasonably well. Then settled back easily and then woke again at 3:30 crying! I gave her a bit of water then held her while she was crying, maybe fore 5-7 mins and then she stopped crying. And calmed down. Then I put her down but she kept chatting a bit, then fussed on and off, then cried again so I picked her up again but only for a few mins, then she chatted again!! Eventually I put her down and I fell asleep and she fell asleep around 4:40. So she was upfor about an hr all up!  Then only woke for the day at 6:40

She did this the night before at 3:30 and chatted/fussed on and off until she fell asleep around 4:30. THat's 2 nights in a row. Maybe she needs more A time before bed? But yyesterday she was sooooo tired, I thought maybe bcos of teething and she took 2 long naps. She NEVER does that. Here was our routine from yesterday, in case some of you might be able to pick up something that  I missed: oh and yesterday she was off all her food. Not sure why.

NWs from 2 nights ago: bedtime 6:40, 11:20 fed bit, 3:30 fed bit then chatted/fussed on off until 4:30 then slept and woke happy at 6:45.

E - 6:45 BF not much + 7:30 fussed for solids
A - 6:45 - 10:20
S - 10:20 - 11, woke crying but I managed to resettle then slept 11:05 - 12

E - 12 BF again fussed heaps didn't take much. Tooke 30 ml from bottle + 12:30 fussed for solids + 2:40 BF RB fed better
A - 12 - 2:58
S - 3 - 4:10..She never does this normally. Maybe tired from teething?

E - 4:15 BF LB fed better again + 5:15 dinner, fed bit better + 7 EBM bottle before bed (150 ml)
A - 4:10 - 7:15
S - 7:15 - see NWs mentioned for last night.

The thing I'm a bit confused about was this morning when DD woke up (her last BF would have been at 12:30) and I tried to BF her at 6:40 when she woke she didn't feed much. I would've thought she would be very hungry since she didn't feed at 3:30 like she normally does?

I have noticed DD normally doesn't BF a lot upon waking in the morning. She normally has her solids well for breakfast but does fuss a bit for her BF as soon as waking. I usedto assume that maybe because of the NFs and that's why. But I was surprised this AM since she only had 1 feed all night since her bedtime bottle at 7, she only fed at 12:30. But she didn't seem very keen to BF properly at 6:40. Weird! Maybe she's still off her food due to teething?

Thanks again and I would love to know what you think and whether you have any suggestions or should I just keep going like this with the 3:30 waking? Hopefully she'l stop waking!! Wouldn't that be nice? But I hope she doesn' take an hour long to settle each time!!

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

I'm thinking teething may be part of it - which might be why she wasn't too interested in nursing first thing in the morning.

I also wonder if her pm nap is too late.  For a 7pm-ish bedtime, I found that the A time needed to be a bit more - the final nap finishing definitely before 4pm (we tended to do around 1-3pm).

[sherry lynn]

Hey Priya - glad to see you're getting great support and advice here

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, we've had to to put all our NF weaning and everthing else on hold because DD is very sick at the moment. She must have been starting to fall ill earlier and that's why she was going off her food, milk and everything. She's managed to get a very back viral infection and is so blocked up, she keeps crying and coughing up mucus and absolutely cannot feed because she can't breath! No amount of nasal decongestions are helping and I'm so worried about her getting dehydrated.

our entire A time is spent trying to spoon feed her milk/juice and a bit of solids. She just fusses so much and I can see why the poor little sweetie is suffering so much

I hope she gets better soon and then we can get back to our old routine and the NWs issues. Now I basically do whatever needs to be done at night to get her to have a least some sleep.

I"ll post again in a few days when she's hopefully better..

[~inbalance~]

Hope she feels better soon!  DS just got over a little virus a few weeks ago.  It was rough at first, but he handled it well and was back to normal well within a week.  I hope it's the same for you too! 

[sherry lynn]

*hugs* I hope she has a speedy recovery.

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, just popped over to say hello. DD is still pretty sick, although today she showed small signs of getting better. She kicked around like a little nutter after her lunch for the first time in what seems like ages! It was short-lived but a good sign nevertheless.

She's still really off all her milk feeds because she is still finding it hard to breath. What happens is she gets so worked up when she's offered a BF or bottle that she starts fussing, shoves the bottle away, doesn't BF and then proceeds to scream!

The past few feeds the only thing that's really worked is once she's calm and has fallen asleep that's when she BFs, kind of like a DF! I hope this doesn't start becoming a habit...what do you think?

I better head off to bed, hopefully I can catch an hour or two of sleep before the NWs and crying start!! Sigh!

[sherry lynn]

You have to do what you have to do. So just keep an eye on it and as soon as she starts seeming better start trying to push the feeds when awake again. Good luck.

[shresmummy]

Hi! It's been ages since i've written. I don't know if the problem was at my end or not, but for the past couple of weeks I couldn't access the BW site. Anyway, today was the first day it worked, so thought I better get my post in 

I just wanted to update you on how DD"s been going. The good news is that she's fully recovered yay! That was a ordeal! But I"m sure there are many more to come 

One good thing that came out of it is the NWs have reduced a lot and so have the NFs! She herself was not interested in feeding while she was sick and her night sleep got a lot better and she didn't wake up for a lot of feeds. Having said that though yesterday it started again 

Sherry and Alexa, I was wondering whether you could have a look at my routine. You are familiar with DD's routine from way back and just wanted to know what you thought of how it's going now. For the most part, the past few days and night have been like this:

Wake - anytime between 6 and 7

E - BF upon waking + 8/8:30 solids
A - usually up until about 10 - 10:30 depending on when she woke. I have been trying to keep nap times consistent-ish and it seems to have been working
S - 10 - 11:30 or 10:30 -  12ish

E - EBM bottle upon waking + 12:45/1:15 lunch
A - usually up until about between 3 - 3:15
S - 3:10 - 4:20 I don't allow her to sleep past 4:30

E - BF topped up with EBM upon waking + 5:45 dinner + 7:30 EBM bottle before bed
A - usually up until about 7:30/7:40
S - 7:40 - NWs vary each night but usually are as follows:

After bedtime, usually DD tends to have a brief crying wake around 10:30 - 11:30 anytime. I wonder why. Sometimes she can settle herself and other times she needs a couple of mins of comfort. But no feed. Then one night she went back to sleep and only woke at 6!! I rejoiced but it was short-lived  She usually wakes up again anytime between 2 - 2:30, feeds and then goes back to sleep and wakes for the day between 6:15 - 6:45.

Last night however, she went to bed around 7:40 then woke around 1 crying so I fed her. SHe only fed a bit and then I put her back to sleep but she woke again at 4 and kept crying! So I had to feed her again    Oh no! Is she starting the NWs again

Do you think the routine needs a tweak, are her naptimes OK? Also the other thing I was wondering is why do you think she wakes up so early despite quite a late bedtime of 7:40 PM? Has she had enough sleep or is she napping too much during the day? DO you think she might need more A time before bed?
I have started giving her more EBM bottles during the day so I"m sure she's feeding well and not waking out of hunger at night.

Thanks heaps and I look forward to hearing from you!
Priya

[hjrmom01]

Hi Priya, I don't have much to offer except HUGS  Our day looks SO similar to yours so I'll be interested to hear what others have to say for you...I think our lo's are within days of each other, too!

Is your lo teething right now?  How does she go down for bed at night? Is she awake or practically asleep? Do you shh/pat or put down and walk out?  I used to get H way too sleepy and then put him down and then he'd wake up anywhere from 45 min to a few hours later and cry and I would have to go in and reassure.  At first I thought it was reflux or SA but then some people helped me realize that I was helping him sleep too much.  Now, the majority of the time I put him down and leave and only go back if he's really crying.  Sometimes my timing is off and he gets WAY drowsy so I quickly finish feeding and then put him down. 

Anywho...I hope someone can come by with some advice to help you out!  I'm right here with you, though