sleep problems for 2 year old :-(

[blessedmamma]

Hi

Where shall I start, well firstly Becky has been wonderful and offered me advice in the past, which I am still trying to implement but just can't seem to manage. Was going to write back and thank everyone once I got sorted but unfortunately 5 months on and i'm still struggling and the problems are getting worse so firstly I would like to apologise for not getting back and thanking people.

I have a 2 year old boy who never really transitioned from the 2 - 1 nap thing very well. Before the transition he was sleeping approx 11 1/2 hours at night and 1 1/2 in morning and 1 hour in the afternoon. Going to sleep each time without a problem and waking up happy most times. The problems started about 7 months ago when he cut his morning and afternoon naps to 45 mins each. It was then I decided he must be ready to go to one nap ( he was 17 1/2 months old at that point) so I moved his sleep to 11.00 am - he slept 1 hour 20 mins and was still sleeping 11 1/2 hours at night. He then started to lengthen his daytime nap to 2hours then 2 hours 15 mins at which point he dropped his nighttime sleep to 10 1/2 hours - as he had an early bedtime it meant he was waking up at 5.30am, sometimes 5am - urgh !! So I started waking him from his daytime nap after 1 1/2 sleep time.( I know now I should've started to put him to bed earlier then and he would've probably caught up on his OT, when I found this out (again with the help of Becky, it was too late and I couldn't get him to take a longer lunchtime nap!) He did however add this time back to his night sleep and seemed OK for a few days until he started NW and then EW. Then he dropped his day sleep to 1 hour and has now recently for the last month or so starting taking 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours (Chatting and singing) to fall asleep at night.

Becky kindly suggested bringing his bedtime earlier which thankfully seems to have eliminated the NW  but means at the moment I am having to put him to bed at 4.40PM in order to get him to sleep at a decent time of 6.20PM. He then wakes anytime between 5.20am and 6.20am. I have been putting him back down to sleep at 11.30 but he still is only sleeping for 1 hour which then means I again need to put him to bed at 4.40 and then after a few days he then starts waking earlier, which then means every 4 or 5 days he was ending up falling asleep in the car at 9.30 ish.
He did this last weekend and he slept for 1/2 in the car so I tried him in his cot 2 and 1/2 hours later, he rested for 2 hours but didn't sleep then had the best nights sleep ever 12 and 1/2 hours and the day after had a lunchtime sleep of 1 and 1/2 hours !!!! However, I then made another mistake and thought OK he's had a decent lunchtime nap, i'll put him to bed at 5.10pm instead of 4.40pm but this backfired and it ended up in DS being awake for 2 hours chatting during the night !! So ...I thought if I can get him to fall asleep in the car again early morning, then rest again in his cot later in the day, might be able to get out of it that way......but no.......I've tried everyday since and he just seems even more determined not to fall asleep now in the car !!!! He seems to have a rest, which doesn't seem to have any effect on his lunchtime nap either way !

I think my poor boy is so OT I just don't know what to do  I've tried AP him back to sleep when he wakes after the hour but he won't go back. I've tried WI/WO to try get him back to sleep and that doesn't work either.

I was thinking of trying to move his lunchtime nap earlier, starting with say 3 days of awake time of 5 1/2 hours, then 3 days of 5 hours 15 mins and then 3 of 5 hours (regardless of what time he wakes in the morning) which again was a suggestion of Becky's (Thanks again) I did try doing this in the past when Becky suggested it but then ended up getting into a pickle with the night sleeps as his lunchtime sleep never got longer than 1 hour which made an even longer afternoon before bed which equals a restless night :-( Which then makes him more grumpy the next morning and therefore more tired before his nap and so the cycle continues 

Sorry for the long one :-(

Thanks in advance

[becky1969]

So sorry things are still wonky!

I actually think he's UT at bedtime now, if you can believe that! For instance, the day he had a long night sleep (12.5 hours) and a good nap (1.5 hours) and then you put him to bed at 5.  That was too early, which is why he played so long, and then probably got OT.

So, can I get the hours straight?

Awake at what, 6?  Nap when?  And it's only an hour, right?  And then bedtime at 4:40 so that he falls asleep by 6:20.  So need to know exactly when awake, nap, and nap length. 

We'll sort this! For the record, I think putting him down at 4:40 just isn't going to work.  Regardless of when he wakes from nap, he's going to fight sleep because his biological clock is oging to say "Hey! It's daytime! What gives?"  So, we need to find a better way to get him to fall within a decent amt of time at bedtime.

[blessedmamma]

Thanks Becky for helping again.

OK, well yesterday he was awake chatting at 5.40am (he had been shuffling since 5.30) so I put him down for his nap at 11.10 (I was working on starting the 5 1/2 awake time for a few days then putting it back to 5h 15 min, etc) he was asleep by 11.15 and slept till 12.15, I let him rest in cot till 1.30 (he just sits and plays & chats in there) and then I got him up. He was then starting to rub his eyes and ears by 2pm ? (which he also usually does before breakfast) so I tried him back in his cot for 1/2 hour - he started to cry after 20 mins.

4.40pm I put him in his cot for bed (to be honest I thought this was a bit early but if I put him later he still usually takes over an hour to fall asleep and then it's too late a bed time and when I tried that once he woke at 4.30am chatting and wouldn't go back to sleep, so I didn't try that again, maybe I should've persevered ?) Anyway, last night he fell asleep at 6.30 and woke at 2.30 chatting for 5 mins then went back to sleep till 6.10 this morning. I was thinking of putting him down for his nap today at 11.30am ??

I would love to sort this out, as at the moment he only gets to see his daddy on weekends :-( luckily this weekend is a long one (bank holiday) so they have been able to spend some nice quality time together but he misses his daddy during the week and is often then rather clingy to him on a weekend (which is understandable).

Thanks again Becky.

[blessedmamma]

Sorry, just had a thought in that you may have wanted the times for the good nap day we had last week which was: the day before he slept 1/2 in car from 8.50am till 9.20am then I put him in his cot for his nap at 11.30, he played in there till 1.30 when started to get restless so I picked him out. He then went to bed at 4.40pm and was asleep by 5.40pm, stirred & grumbled for about 15 mins at 9.30pm then slept pretty soundly until 6.10am the following day when he started shuffling. He was awake chatting by 6.30am. I put him down for his nap at 11.30 and he slept till 1pm. I then put him down at 5.20pm he didn't fall asleep till 6.45, he was then awake chatting during night from 2.30am - 4.30am then back to sleep till 6.30am.

Thanks

[abaker89]

Your lo sounds a lot like mine with the difficult two-one transition and then the 1 hr 20 min naps.  I think maybe you are asking for too much sleep.  My lo is now 25 mths and just to give an idea wakes at 7:30, naps at 1 (5.5 hrs A time which I do adjust if she wakes earlier or later) and then bed at 7:30 or 8.  Many days she only naps 1 hr or 1.5 hrs and a few days a week she will nap 2 hrs.  I feel like she is doing great, falls asleep within 10 min or so. 

So maybe it would help to have a bit later bedtime and then you wouldn't be stuck with your husband not seeing him.  I may be completely wrong here but I just thought he sounded a lot like my lo, who has never been a great napper and loves her long nights.  Most of her playgroup friends either sleep much less at night, say 10 hrs, to get that really long nap or they have stopped napping all together a few days a week. 

I have also tried infinite variations on A time to get her nap longer and she just doesn't seem able to do it.  I can do the same exact thing and one day get 2 hrs, the next 1 hr.  I don't think this is really something we can control that much.

Aileen

[becky1969]

I agree wtih PP.  He may just be an 1-1.5 hour nap guy.  Some of them NEVER lengthen that 1 nap out.  He *does* sound sleepy, but I have a feeling if we could push bedtime out, then wake time would get later which would make nap more in his window and he'd be less sleepy during the day!

Let's try this:

5.5 hours before nap, and then 5 hours post nap.  So you adjust the times according to when he wakes.  Let's make sure you do NOT take him upstairs before 6 pm, even if that means he's up longer than 5 hours.  I just think before 6 you're messing with his biological clock.  I think THAT'S why he's playing so long when you put him down at 4:40.  At 4:30 I think what you were getting is a cat nap, to be honest! So, you're sort of at tht cusp biologically where his body is still thinking nap, not night.

This means if I don't have you take him up until 6 that he probably won't be asleep until 6:30 at the latest.  He may very well play for 2 hours here too.  Let's not worry about that for now.  Let's just try to get his clock switched.


Let's also talk about your wind down.  Perhaps there are some things we can do to help get him more in the mood for sleep!

[blessedmamma]

Hi

Aileen thanks for your reply, we do sound like we have similar children, however mine takes ages to fall asleep at night. That's probably due to the early bedtime though so will start to move his bedtime later. It will be lovely for DS to see his daddy when he gets home from work too, thanks for the advice.

Becky, I'm almost certain my DS is sleepy, as whenever I get him out of his cot he is rubbing his ears and eyes after being up for only 1 1/2 hours  and his behaviour indicates sleepiness. He has been awake since 5.10am this morning (although he played in his cot till 6.50) so it's now 10.40am and I have just put him down to sleep. I will not put him to bed tonight till 6pm and see how he goes - fingers crossed. Thanks for helping.

Wind down during the day is we put on DS PJ's, he gets his cup of milk and picks a couple of books, we sit and read (in living room - maybe I should move this to his bedroom) then he gets into his sleeping bag, I carry him to his bedroom whilst I sing him a lullably and then lay him in his cot. He is usually asleep within 10 mins at lunchtime.
Evening winddown is dinner, bath, brushteeth, milk & stories and the rest is exactly as it is in the day. He used to play between dinner and bath but since the 4.40 bedtime he doesn't have time, so it's straight into the bath. I should also say that up until about 2 months ago he was breastfed just before bed on a night time (This was his only B/F of the day at this point as he had been weaned off the rest) but I weaned him off this gradually.

I'll post tomorrow and let you know how today went.

Thanks

[blessedmamma]

Hi

I actually think DS bodyclock is set at 11.30 for his lunchtime nap as when I tried to put him down at 10.40am this morning he played and chatted till 11.20 then went to sleep and only slept 30 mins. I'm thinking that aswell, that might be why he had that good nap of 1h 1/2 hours that day as he didn't wake till 6.20am that morning (so was not so tired when I put him down at 11.20) and therefore slept the hour and a half. If this is the case, do you think I should still be putting him down 5 and a half hours wake time before nap and 5 after, or do you think it would be best to move his clock back gradually, to say 11.15 for 3 days, then 11.00am for 3 days until we get more than 1 hour sleep from him? This still won't fix the nights however ?

[blessedmamma]

PS thank you for your help.

[becky1969]

Why were you putting him down at 10:40? That would only be about 4h20 A time? Too early! UT!  And I think that 30 min nap was probably under tired as well.

He's old enough he should be able to make it a good 5 hours, I think.  Even a sleepy bub!  Not sure why you're moving A time BACKWARDS (making it less each day).  I think the kid is UT, not OT.  If you try to give him a nap at 10:40 a) I don't think he'll be tired enough, and b) even if he slept a whole 2 hours [which we're not even sure he can do] then he's up by 12:40 and then you've got a LONG stretch until even an early bedtime at 6.

Trust me on this one -- let's stretch him! I think he's ready.

[blessedmamma]

Hi Becky

I put DS down at 10.40 because I thought you said 5h 30 mins from awake time (which today was 5.10am). Do you go 5h 30 mins from when you get them up? Which in this case was 6.50am Sorry, I'm getting confused ? I'll try him in his cot for a rest this afternoon so that there's not too long a stretch till bedtime.

[becky1969]

OK, I think *I* was confused! I thought he went back to sleep until after 6. 

So, what happens when your guy is OT at naptime? Does he only nap 30 minutes? Or can you still get a good hour out of him?

Also, I forget (and don't have time to read above again this mo) -- have you done 2 naps with him at this age? If so, does it work?  Like, offering a little 15 min cat nap early in the day and then another longer nap in the pM? Will he sleep or does 15 minutes refresh him and there's no chance of a nap?

[blessedmamma]

Hi Becky

No worries, I bet you have a lot of these to read so no wonder it gets confusing.

Yesterday went like this:

5.10 awake
10.40 in cot, 11.20 asleep till 11.50
2pm in cot showing tired signs - rested till 3.15 but no sleep
6.00pm in cot 6.30 asleep
5.20 awake, 5.50 chatting and playing till 6.50 - up

Was gonna put DS back down for nap at 10.50 and see what happens ?

No matter how OT he is if I stick to putting him down around 11.30 ish he will usually sleep 1 hour, however this is not long enough to get him to bed time ?

I did once wake him in the am after 15mins of sleep at 9.30 and I was able to get an hour out of him at 1pm till 2pm, he then didn't go to sleep until 7.30pm and was awake 5.30am (so a shorter night) however he won't go to sleep now that early in the morning (9.30am), I tried for about a week after and he wouldn't go down

Thanks again

[abaker89]

It really does seem like the EW is the problem.  If you could get him shifted by an hour or two I think it would really help.  He is sleeping a good length at night, sounds like about 11 hrs usually.  Then he would ne napping closer to the normal drowsy time during their day which is 12 or 1 pm usually.  I think when they nap so early in the day, its just not the right time for them, if that makes any sense.  So maybe try and read some of the threads on how to solve EW, that seems like the key to fix this.  But I'm no expert so maybe Becky has another idea.

Aileen

[becky1969]

Totally agree with Aileen!

If you can get an hour out of him around 11:30 ish then I would push him to 12 or 12:30 (if you can manage it).  If it looks like it's going to be a REAL push, then take him up to his room at 11:15 and just do quiet play/activities to sort of stretch wind down out until it's closer to the noon hour.  Then if he sleeps 1 hour you'll get a 1 or 1:30 waking which makes it easier to make it to 6;30/7 or so, and hopefully that will help with EW problems.

When they get in this EW cycle at this age it is VERY hard to fix! Our best solution is to make nap as late as possible so that they wake later and can push bedtime out.  Not easy to do! It's very trial and error -- but once you get him waking more like 6 or 6:30, then it's MUCH easier to make it to a noon nap time and he'll be less OT and thus more likely to sleep longer.  Have you ever tried laying down with him in an attempt to extend nap?