Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....

[babybarr]

DS was one yesterday.  For the last 4 weeks or so he has been waking in the night for 1.5hrs + tossing and turning and not asleep.  He's not crying but isn't sleeping.  He started STTN at 10wks old and would do 11 - 12 hrs straight.  He's been a short napper his whole life until about 12 weeks ago when I fixed his nap times and for the first time ever he started taking 2 good naps.  On the advice of many when this started I spent a good week making his am nap later and giving a catnap and for 5 days he started sleeping better.  Now it has started up again.  My doctor and HV say I shouldn't worry and leave him be as he's not crying but he can't carry on like this as it's now affecting his days as he's knackered - and mine!!!

His routine on one nap was looking like this and like I said worked for a good 5 days...

wake around 6.30am
nap 11.30 (this would vary in length between 1.5 - 2hrs)
bed for 6.30 or earlier if nap was short.

The last few days have been a nightmare and I don't know what to do.

Last night he woke from 9.30pm - 11.30pm and 4.30am - 6.30am when we got up.

He isn't distressed but NOT asleep.
Help geratly received!!!

[becky1969]

My guess is those molars are starting to bother him.  They're probably not so painful they make him cry, just painful enough to make sleeping difficult.  Have you ever had a mild headache wake you in the middle of the night? It's not quite bad enough to get up and take aspirin, but if you don't you just sort of toss and turn 'cuz it's uncomfortable? I suspect the sensation is something like that.

Try some meds before bed and/or at that NW  and see if that helps any. 

Also a question about timing -- has he been on 1 nap the full 4 weeks? or did this sleep problem start before you tried the 1 nap thing?

[LizzieN]

I have found with my LO that if he is OT when he goes to sleep of a night we often have a NW about 3 hours after he goes down....perhaps your LO is just taking a bit of time to get used to the 1 nap transition?  I'm no expert we are having wonky sleeps at the moment too, so I'll send you some hugs
xxLizzie

[babybarr]

Becky, the sleep problem started before we I decided to change slowly to one nap.  Before he was definitely much more awake and playful, the changing to the one nap has helped a bit I think.  If he has a very bad night he'll have a long am nap and then a catnap (if I can get him to take it so it does vary a little from day to day.  He had another goodish night on saturday after bad naps, I offered 2 cos he'd had a bad night but he had bad naps too so was knackered!

I was starting to wonder if it was the molars...he currently has 7 teeth (4 top, 3 bottom) that 8th one seems to be taking ages to appear and I guess the molars are next?  I have been giving him meds at bedtime so will start giving them as soon as he wakes in the night and see what happens.

How long ideally should the one nap be if he does about 11.5hrs at night and what sort or time usually?

Thanks for your help.

Laura xx

[becky1969]

What we typically do is have the nap occur 4.5-5 hours after they wake up.  Now, if LO gets up at 6 that just doesn't work b/c ideally nap should happen around 11:30-12 so that a 2 hour nap gets you to 1:30/2 and a 6:30/7 bedtime is within 5 hours.

If your LO can't make 4.5-5 hours of A time yet then he's probably not quite ready for a daily 1 nap.  He might be ready for 1 nap 2 or 3 days a week though, but then will have to catch up on sleep on the other days.  He's a bit on the young side for 1 nap, but it's not unheard of!

Hope the meds work! That would be my guess!

[babybarr]

He tends to go down for his nap around 11.30am, he generally wakes up between 6 and half past but he will go down ealier if he's tired.  How can I get him to take a 2 hr nap though??!!  today he did 1 hr 20mins - which is fairly typical and woke up happy enough.  He went down today at 6.10pm as I couldn't get another catnap in.  I hear what you're saying about one nap and many days in the last couple of weeks he's had one long nap and a catnap usually catnap in afternoon.  He's always been low on daily sleep and always been very good at night which is why this is a bit of a mystery!!

Tonight I'll do meds after 10mins of him tossing and turning and not settling, he had meds before going to bed.

Your Owen looks like a bundle of fun!!

[babybarr]

Ok so they day before yesterday he had nap of 1hr 20mins at 11.30 was in bed by 6.15 and slept through ( I think) till 5.45am, I went and gave him a cuddle and he went back to sleep.  Yesterday however was a different story....nap at 11.30am he slept for 1hr 40mins bed and asleep by 6.30 he woke at 7.15ish tossing and turning and crying a bit for about half hr then woke at midnight when I gave him meds, he went back to sleep till 3.30 when he was tossing and turning for a little while the woke at 5.20am and wouldn't settle.

Literally at my limit now and not sure what to do.  Any suggestions please?  He does seem to sleep a bit better on one nap although I'm aware that early waking in the evening is supposed to indicate OT but why is he spending SO much time awake in the night if he's OT?

[becky1969]

Actually, a waking 45 minutes after going to sleep says discomfort to me to be honest.  Usually they'll sleep a good 3-6 hours before having an OT waking.  So I think you did the right thing giving meds.  Did you give Tylenol by chance? If so, then that 3:30 waking sounds like the meds were wearing off. If you gave Motrin, then it's possible that it just didn't help enough.  Molars hurt!

I think the timing of everything sounds pretty good -- he's having a decent nap length and is going down pretty easily. Also, you had a great night the previous day.  It's *possible* that he can handle that schedule for 1 day but the next day he's just going to be a tad too tired to make it, so you might try alternating 1 and 2 nap days.  Offer a VERY short AM nap around 3.5-4 hours after waking (15-20 min) and then longer nap a good 4 hours after that.  So, with a 5:45 waking I'd probably offer nap around 9:45 waking at 10, and then longer nap at 2 (hopefully waking at 3:30) and then bed around 7:30 (hopefully asleep by .

It's probably just going to take trial and error and WHY God planned to give toddlers molars when they're also struggling to move to 1 nap I'll never know! One of those questions for the pearly gates, I suppose! 

[babybarr]

Ok thanks for that.  I'm in uk and not sure what tylenol or motrin is sorry - I gave paracetamol and at his night waking.  Do you think Ibuprofen would be better?

My mum usually looks after him and she has a school run so I have to get the nap in bfore 3pm.  I've been giving a short am nap around 9am if he's been waking a lot in the night or has woken early.

Today he did...
woke 5.20am!!!! - dozed on and off though
nap 9 - 9.45am
nap 12.45 - 2pm (I guess maybe if the first nap was shorter he may have done longer - or if I had the option to make it later perhaps)
Bed asleep at 6.30pm

We'll see what happens tonight.  He's had meds again.  How long do you think before the molars come in?  We've been having these funny wakings for a while now.

[becky1969]

Yes, ibuprofin is better.

If you're stuck having your nap at a certain time b/c of school then make sure you really limit that first nap to no more than 20 or 30 min.  That should help give you more sleepies for pM nap!

Every kid is different on how long teeth take.  There's 4 molars so it can take a month or more.

[LizzieN]

Hey sweetie,
One note, if your LO has a sensitive tummy paracetamol is better than ibuprofin.  Our LO has reflux and we were advised against using it regularly.  Seriously your night wakings sound A LOT like what we have been having, and we think it's teeth.  Our LO has just cut two molars and is cutting one of his bottom teeth and we have been having a really rough time too...

Last night and tonight have been the first two nights where we haven't had a massive screaming session and reflux session at bed time for weeks...it was SO nice!  Don't even care what the night is like really, that easy settle down was a gift!!

I can usually tell when our DS has teeth coming at least a month before they get close to cutting...It's a tough call, but the pain seems to come and go a bit and I medicate as I feel he needs it (try not to do too much, but feel in the past I have done too little)..

Good luck sweetie
Lizzie

[babybarr]

Thanks Lizzie that's nice to know -sorry for you though too!

DS has reflux to and another ongoing medical condition. So we should give paracetamol is that what's better for reflux bubs or refrain from meds atall??

The way he lies on one side of his face then turns to the other and back again I definitely think he's uncomfortable and teeth would be the obvious thing.  He got all four top teeth at one and that was a nightmare too!

What sort of meds do you give and when and is your DS grumpy in the day or not too bad?

Thanks again for posting, I don't feel quite so alone!!  - although Becky you've been really great BTW!!

[LizzieN]

Hey lovely,

My pharmacist said that I could use ibuprofen if I needed too (ie if paracetamol wasn't helping, for example if it wasn't bringing a fever down) but that it was better to stick with paracetamol.  I use teething gel too to give some instant relief and lots of mums post about herbal tablets (think they are in the UK) to help too.

Our LO isn't usually too grumpy during the day, especially when he is playing.  He has just had a cold and was pretty cranky during the day and occasionally if I thought he was pulling at his ears or scratching at his face a lot I would give a dose of Dymadon then (paracetamol)...He would literally see me and start screaming at me...it was SO nice when our happy little boy came back

I usually tried not to dose with paracetamol until nap times and sleep time at night, just to help him settle down (and it REALLY did help) and I would totally suggest you try it and see if it helps.  It will do no harm if that isn't the problem and if the teeth are bothering him then some pain relief will do him the world of good (a good nights sleep for all is a beautiful thing).  We find that our LOs reflux flares up really badly around teething too, although our paed says that they are unrelated....not sure about that one, so we do end up doing a lot of cuddling in the middle of the night and relaxing about self settling, use dummies/paci if we really need to etc..

Honestly why do they always bring so many teeth through together????Our LO does the same, it's a nightmare!!!  Poor little sausage has bumps everywhere in his mouth (although as my mum says at least it will be over fairly quickly LOL)...it's no wonder he has issues sometimes, added to that the reflux....It's SO SO tiring isn't it??!!!

You are not alone sweetie, chat to me any time you want.  I don't pretend to have wonderful knowledge or advice, in fact some days I feel like the most useless mother on earth, but I am so happy to help in any way that I can

Many HUGE HUGS
Lizzie

[babybarr]

Thanks, I have been giving him meds at bedtime and now have been trying at the NWs and after he's had the meds usually within 30mins he's asleep which would suggest discomfort wouldn't it?  How old is your LO Lizzie?  Oliver is sort of transitioning to the one nap as well as you probably have read but I can't seem to get him to have a 1.75 - 2hr nap.  He does occasionally do about 1hr 40mins but today it was 1hr 10mins and obviously this isn't enough to see him through the day so I try to get a catnap into him but this doesn't always work!!  Maybe I should try meds 30mins before a nap and see if that helps - what do you think?  I feel bad to keep dosing him up though....

I'm sure we all feel pretty useless sometimes as a mother I know I do.  DS has had a rocky ride, he's never been "well" I put it down to reflux which I had to really fight to get a diagnosis and some support and after pushing for a second opinion they said yes he does have reflux but they also discovered he has a rare blood condition called autoimmune neutropenia and since they diagnosed that he's been in and out of hospital.  However at least since discovering this and putting him on daily antibiotics he's become much happier and content during the day, something I thought wasn't ever going to happen.

Anyway don't mean to ramble.....catnap looks like it's unsuccessful so I guess a mega early bedtime and crossed fingers and toes!!

Hope you have a good night.

Laura xx

[LizzieN]

Hey Laura,

Our little man, Dyllan is 15 months old....and yes I think we are going through the 2 to 1 transition too, so things are a bit wonky.  Some days he will have a good long nap (almost 2 hours) and other days it's a little over an hour.  I have found keeping him up a little longer than the 4 hours he was doing helps, but it's a fine line between tired enough and OT....Also our LO isn't great with an early bed time, so if the day naps are short we struggle a bit!

Since he has gone onto the Elecare elemental formula he has been vomiting again, so horrible when he is half asleep and chucks, poor little darling...did that tonight and it made it difficult as I had put him down early, then he chucked and then couldn't get back to sleep...But then if it stops the "silent" reflux I still think it's worth it.  Will have to talk to the paed again.

So what does your LOs condition entail? I assume it's to do with over active white blood cells causing an autoimmune problem? If he is on antibiotics a lot can you team that with a good pro-biotic to keep his tummy happy (I would imagine the antibiotics would make the reflux flare up??)...or is that a no-no with his condition?  I feel for you, so much.  It must be dreadful having your precious little one in and out of hospital...HUGE HUGS xx

I feel bad dosing our LO up too, but the way I figure it is if I had massive pain from teeth (I did when I had braces as a kid) I would take paracetamol....I don't tend to give it for every nap or night waking, I kind of test the water first and see if I can do other things to help, but if I'm sure he is struggling (all the pulling at ears and face etc) then I give it and if nothing else seems to work I will also give him some.  As I said I tended to under dose in the earlier days and that didn't work very well....

If we have been struggling and giving pain meds for a couple of nights in a row, I tend to stop....reassess....try without and try for a few nights without again.  If it doesn't work and he seems to be in pain, I go back to dosing him.  Same during the day (although I use it MUCH less during the day), if he really seems "off" I give it a go.

It is such a guessing game even without extra medical issues.

xx Huge Hugs to you all
Lizzie