Author Topic: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....  (Read 14643 times)

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Offline tired56

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2009, 22:11:10 pm »
Hi Laura.  I just wanted to let you know that I have had the same problem with both my children, and unfortunately still do!  My DS has been the worse.  He was really bad at the same age as your little one, awake for an hr or two sometimes longer nearly every night.  It then went to about once a week when he was about 15 mths, but sometimes he would have a bad week and it would happen a few times.  Now it happens about once a mth since he was about 18 mths.  A few people on here have said it's to do with OT and I think it probably is as he does a lot of OT naps but he is an absolute nightmare to read with his tired signs and his nights are so different that I have never been able to have a fixed nap time!  He has started STTN more over the last 6 weeks, but again it can range from 10-11.5 hrs but that is fantastic compared to being awake for extended periods.  But I still have to be flexible with his nap time b/c otherwise he gets really OT and then I think the extended NWs start rearing their ugly head again.  He has just turned 2. 

My DD also did it off and on from about 9mths to 23 mths.  Then it started up again when she started dropping her nap, I guess b/c she gets OT and needs a nap some days but refuses.  She is 4 in Nov and she will sometimes have a good week and then a bad one where she has extended NWs a few times (last night was AWFUL with her).  One thing I have noticed is that when she was younger the long NWs could be at anytime from 10pm - 5am, but since she was about 3 they tend to be in the last half of the night, never in the first half.  And they are usually not longer than 60 mins now.  So maybe by the time she is 6 she won't do it anymore!

I too went to a paediatrician and didn't get anywhere.  I have rung various different sleep clinics too and not got proper answers.  Most think it is behavioural but it definitely is not.  Both my kids know now that they are supposed to be sleeping - DD just lays in her bed sucking her thumb but NOT sleeping.  She doesn't appear to be any pain, and she would tell me if she was.  She isn't talking, just laying quietly.  She tellls me she tries to sleep but just can't :(  The paed said they aren't autistic, and most docs say they will grow out of it, but WHEN!!  One nurse said it could be overstimulation, which I think is most probable, linked with the OT.  I also went to a naturopath who told me to cut out potatoes, dairy, tomatoes and wheat!!  I did it for a couple of weeks, but no change, but think I may try it again for longer and see what happens.  Another nurse said they have had babies in her sleep clinic that do this and they call them players, but mine are definitely not playing!  They are TRYING to sleep!  I would call it a type of childhood insomnia! 

So you might find he gets better as he is able to stay awake for longer periods and not get so OT.  I hope so and that something works out soon.  I tried the short catnap for my DS when he was 12 mths too, but it never worked he just got sooooo OT.  Sorry just realised how much I have waffled!!


Offline babybarr

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2009, 08:04:23 am »
Thanks Tired56 - I guess!

The weird thing is this started when he was napping better than ever.  I fixed nap times and the naps got longer and a bit like yours no real tired signs but was sleeping better in the day.  We were having good naps when this started.  The bad naps have been from the 2-1 transition, however the naps have over the last few days got a bit better again.  Yesterday he had a 2hr nap and this is really unheard of for him but now we have EWs.  I think OT may play a part but how can I get him out of this cycle if he can't sleep?  It doesn't make sense.... :(

Did your docs ever suggest a sedative with yours?  Mine suggested it but until the sleep clinic have assessed his oxygen levels they won't do anything like that.  Were yours tested for apnea?  This is a very common childhood problem and causes lots of restless sleep.  I think there is childhood insomnia and I think it's often related to apnea - just a thought.  Was there anything you did to help?  I have been fixing his nap time to within about half an hour or so as this helped his naps before but I can't cope with 5am wake up now on top of everything else!

Catnaps just don't seem to work anymore.  I mean I could try giving him one in the morning but then I have a big risk he may not then have a proper later nap!  I feel like I can't win!

Thanks for posting and if you think of anything else please let me know.  If you're concerned about your childrens sleep just keep pushing.  I don't know how much of this thread you read but Oliver has a rare blood condition and was really quite poorly for a long time and I was just being passed off as neurotic for ages.  I know it can't be right for him not to be able to sleep properly - especially given he STTN when he was 10 wks old!  I agree that Oliver isn't a player either. He isn't trying to get attention or being difficult he's just trying to get to sleep and then after an hr or more he gets frustrated - not surprisingly. Most of his tossing and turning is done in his sleep though. 

Hope you have a good day.
LAURA xx




Offline tired56

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2009, 10:05:32 am »
Hi Laura.  I've just looked through the rest of your thread and you and Oliver have certainly been through tough times.  Well done you though for insisting that something was wrong!  It has now given me renewed energy to try to look in to my LOs sleep problems.  Your DS sounds like my DD - used to sleep through the night but bad naps, whereas my DS has just always been shocking with naps and nights!  The difference with our LOs is also that mine don't really toss and turn much when they are asleep, they are just sometimes wide awake for their NWs.  My DS will occassionally toss and turn for about an hour in his sleep about every 10-20mins but this is rare, I think.  So I was wondering if there is something else wrong with your DS, like sleep apnea, that is causing the restless sleep and making him more OT, which then in turn leads to the horrible viscious OT cycle and the lengthy NWS.  I had read about sleep apnea too, and apparently a sign of it can be a lot of coughing when they are asleep.  Mine only do this rarely but I'm going to mention to my doctor in a couple of weeks at my DD's 4 yr check up. 

My DS sounds very much like your in other ways though, like not being able to get a 2nd nap in.  I found that being flexible with his nap time helped b/c it seemed like if he went down just 15 mins too late for his nap he would invariably do a short nap (anything from 40 - 85 mins and wake crying/very grumpy).  So I had to be flexible to try to ensure a long nap (90-120mins) which he would usually wake happy from, as there was only one shot at it a day and if I got it wrong it usually meant a bad night!  Sometimes this meant he would be waking from it pretty early as he would be up for the day from 5am on (we even had a few 4.30ams!).  By 18 mths I gave up trying to get him having a 2nd nap in the cot on these days and would take him out in the pram instead where he would sometimes have a short catnap, and if he didn't it just seemed to help get him through the rest of the day a bit more.  I have carried on doing that up until recently, but over the last couple of mths I didn't lay him down anymore as he never slept and he would just pull DD's hair (in the double pram) so he would just sit up and this just helped keep him calm as he loves going out in the pram.  So I would recommend any low key activities towards the end of the day and then an early b/time. 

Being flexible with his nap meant I wrote down all his sleep times and then looked back at them to work out when he should go for the nap according to his am wake up time and how much he slept the night before!  So for eg. at 18 mths, if he was awake for 90 mins in the night and only slept 10 hrs total night sleep then he might only have am A time of 3.5hrs to be asleep at the 4 hr mark.  Whereas if he slept through 11.5 hrs his A time would be 4.5 hrs to be asleep at 5hrs.  Sounds crazy doesn't it!!!  But it worked most of the time (not all of the time!).  It didn't completely get rid of those horrible long NWs but I'm sure it helped reduce them, and he would still wake most nights but only for a few mins each time.

When DS is also OT he can take up to 60mins to sleep, sometimes longer, so sometimes if you have put your DS down for a sleep and you're sure he's tired, but he's just not sleeping, he could be like my DS and take aaaaaages to relax and get to sleep. 

Also read that you are a teacher - so am I!!  Sorry to read that they aren't v supportive, I hope they are by now.  I haven't been back to work since just before DS was born, was planning to go back when he was one, but with the way he was sleeping that just didn't happen, so you are doing much better than being able to work as well!! 

Hope things start getting better for you and DS v soon,
Katherine xx   

Offline babybarr

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2009, 11:18:30 am »
Hi Katherine, work are still not supportive but I unfortunately can't leave as we wouldn't be able to survive on just my DHs salary.  I know exactly what you mean about if the nap isn't right the night isn't either so how come yesterday he did a 2hr nap and still had a shocking night??!!! Normally they are directly related but at the mo everything seems to pot!

Oliver doesn't cough an awful lot in his sleep but does yawn (yes when he's asleep - I've watched him do it) and does big heavy gasps. He also breathes through his mouth during the day - do either of yours do this?  I would definitely push with your LOs sleep, I'm not sure how you have survived the last 4years on such little sleep.

Oliver has never been one to nap in the buggy - unfortunately and will only nap in car if he's really tired or we've been driving around for ages!  I think this is kinda my fault really cos when he was small because he was such hard work I only ever made him sleep in his cot in his dark room else he wouldn't sleep atall.  I was a bit of a hermit but my family will tell you that all Oliver did as a small baby was cry really!  He was hard work (still is with the sleep) he is like a different boy now, the happy smiley baby I always thought was there.  I mean even when he's ill everyone comments about how happy he is, it's amazing how they cope isn't it?

He goes to sleep pretty instantly unless he's UT and then will kick up to get out!  He certainly knows what he does and doesn't want!

Let me know how you get on.

Xx Laura
LAURA xx




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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2009, 11:20:04 am »
Hi
Katherine, how are you getting on?  Have you thought anymore about speaking to someone about your LOs?

Things here are weird....So after getting 2hr naps and having Oliver play for 2hrs in the night and waking at the crack of dawn happy as larry...I decided we'd go for a shorter nap during the day.  Now I started this on Sat - Sat night he slept through (first time in ages) Sun night we had 1.5hrs of up and down, tossing and turning a little bit of talking.  Mon night - he slept through, but last night Tues he was back to his usual games - he spent 3hrs turning over trying to sleep.  I was on off sleeping through it but after 2.5hrs I got up gave him some calpol and sat with him for about 10mins and then after another 15mins he was asleep only to wake at 5.30am.  I told him it was too early and gave him another cuddle even though he was telling me he wanting to get up and fortunately he went back to sleep for a bit.

TBH I am tearing my hair out!  It's like one step forward 10 steps back.  I definitely think a slightly shorter nap has helped as when he's awake now he's not having a crib party like he was when he was having 2hr naps and also the EW has stopped ish (touch wood).  BUT I just can't take much more of him desperately trying to get to sleep and not being able to.  I don't understand it, sometimes he looks still asleep turing over constantly but after doing this for 45mins or more he wakes up and then just can't get back to sleep.  I have tried giving him meds straight away but it really makes no difference.  I'm worried about our sleep clinic appointment (when we finally have sometime in the next couple of months) that they'll say it's just behavioural and it's something I'm doing wrong.  I have tried everything and I'm only resorting to sitting with him a while if he's been awake like 2hrs or more.  I don't go to him if he's not crying but this can last hours....he can't continue to spend a couple of hours each night like this - oh and neither can I!!!

Laura Xx
LAURA xx




Offline LizzieN

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2009, 22:43:29 pm »
YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG sweetie and don't go in there thinking that they will say that (if they do tell them to get stuffed)....you are doing everything right xxx

big big hugs
xxLizzie


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Offline babybarr

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2009, 21:06:39 pm »
I feel a little like I'm going insane!  If he's OT (which I guess is likely) how do I ever get him to catch up on sleep if he won't nap longer - even at different times (and when he has it's just eaten into his night sleep) - and if he continues to be awake for this long at night...

Any other thoughts, tips suggestions welcome!!

Thanks Lizzie for ALL your support.

Laura x
LAURA xx




Offline LizzieN

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2009, 21:33:32 pm »
Sweetie will he sleep in the car at all?  Could you give him his one "good" nap a day then go for a well timed drive in the afternoon so he gets say a 15 minute cat nap...not enough to eat into his sleep too much (watch out it doesn't go past about 4:30pm, that's our cut off for Dyllan) but enough to freshen him up and hopefully allow him to gradually catch up?

My other suggestion is EXACTLY the opposite.....have you tried just taking him out, go and do something fun for yourself a couple of times a week and let him sleep in the pram when he can if he can and for the rest of it don't worry about it?  It may contribute to OT, but it may just be good for you both...for you it's important to start living again, sleep deprived, yes, but ALIVE and for Oliver, look it's not going to harm him and perhaps the extra stimulation and interest will be of benefit....it really can't be much worse than what you have been going through....

just a thought, thank you for all your support too sweetheart, I really really appreciate your friendship too
xxLizzie


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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2009, 21:09:24 pm »
We've tried and tried the car!!!  Not a lot of luck!  I have to say I'm just going out much more in the afternoon and if he only short naps then that's longer out and about IYSWIM?!  The buggy has never been a goer for sleeping with him, he's too nosey!

Thanks for the suggestions though.  I may try the car thing again...we'll just go further afield!

L xxxx
LAURA xx




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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2009, 00:02:15 am »
Hey sweetie have you tried putting up quite a dark shade cloth over the buggy?  I see a lot of mums do it and it tends to help their LOs settle down for a better nap??!!  I know what you mean though, Dyllan doesn't sleep in it unless he is COMPLETELY exhausted!!

If it's any consolation, we seem to finally be getting longer naps out of him.  I don't tend to put him down till 12:30 - 1pm now, which is really LONG A time, but he seems to be happy to do down and tends to sleep for a couple of hours...YAY!!!  Hope it continues :)

Big hugs, you know I'm sending love and junk food and a cuppa
xxLizzie


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Offline LizzieN

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2009, 00:03:40 am »
Ohh and the car thing too, Dyllan usually takes at least 20 minutes to fall asleep in the car, even if he is really tired.....he is getting better at it now (I think it may have been refluxy related), but it can still take ages when you think he will fall asleep quickly...strange xx


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Offline babybarr

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2009, 07:07:49 am »
I used to put a cloth over the buggy when he was small.  Now he just screams and pulls it off - hee hee!  I can get a longer nap from Oliver too if I put him down later, BUT then he's not tired enough at bed and was waking at 5am!  I do believe he is OT but I need to find a balance I guess!

Xx
LAURA xx




Offline LizzieN

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2009, 09:19:57 am »
How late were you putting him down sweetie, and how long was he napping for?  What time was he waking up from his nap?  We find if we let Dyllan go past 4:30pm he absolutely cracks it at bedtime (which is around 7:30pm) even though he is clearly tired...so there is no point in trying to get him down before 8pm...sadly going to bed later means he wakes earlier....so I know where you are coming from ::)

I think once they get past the worst of the transition it's probably easier to guage what time is good for nap time (generally)...I have basically found anywhere from about 11:30am works, but better that bit later, but MUST BE before 2pm or we get a massive cranky session (which is fair enough, most days he wakes at 6 or 7am so that is a LONG time to be awake for a little one)....These days I usually give him a light lunch, then say 15 minutes after his bottle and teeth brushing then story and down for the nap...seems to be working ok mostly.

Big hugs lovely
xxLizzie

P.S. I don't think in your case it's just about finding a balance, I still think there is more at play there....hugs to you, you are doing all you can.


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Offline babybarr

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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2009, 14:49:25 pm »
Just a quick one....

SLEEP CLINIC ON THURSDAY!!!  Woohoo!  Got cancellation, now just have to tell work I need some (more) time off... which won't go down well believe me!
LAURA xx




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Re: Tossing and turning for hours at night without sleeping - please help....
« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2009, 01:33:01 am »
Yay that's fantastic sweetie.  Don't worry if they don't like it, that's their problem :)  Good luck at clinic, I'm really excited for you and hope that they are really helpful and listen to what you are saying!!!

Big hugs
xxLizzie


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