Wriggling 7 month old wont sleep!!

[nazmommy]

Turbo Mom,  Thanks for the compliments!  We sure enjoy her!  It is so worth every minute of it.  Spending this time getting to know your lo is worth it.  It took us a LONG time to beat the OT cycle.  She had been deeply OT for such a long time.  It might take a while but I am so glad that I took the time to try to figure her out and how to beat the OT cycle.  She'd probably still OT if I hadn't taken the time to get rid of it.  Your are right to take your pace and do whatever you feel is right.  I have so many critics that tell me to opposite of what my heart and God tell me.  Your mommy heart is what needs to lead you (and God, of course).
Keep at it!  You are awesome!

[nazmommy]

Martina,
I have a question.

One way to remedy this is to not feed at all during the night, then he will no not to expect it so when he wakes he won't bother asking.  Some moms and/or LOs aren't ready for this jump yet, some do it at the same age.  It's very personal.  I started thinking about stopping night feeds at 7 months, but didn't actually do it until 10 months!     But once I did stop feeding, DS stopped waking.

We are struggling with nw/ew's.  She's got it figured out that I will nurse when she wakes at 1 and 4 (those times vary) but I am nervous about dropping them all together.  She is still ebf, and I still do a DF around 10.  What did you do to drop them all together?
And also, about the holding my hand on her.  If I feel I am restraining her and release, she continues to roll and now she can move to a sitting up position.  If I am not going to have my hand on her to keep her from moving, what do I do?  Like I said in a p/p, she is always crying when she lays down.  So, I can't just leave her. 
Suggestions?  Thanks!

[~inbalance~]

Hi nazmommy!  TBH, I took soooo long getting around to the business of dropping the feeds that it didn't take much work at all.  I was doing 2 like you (around the same times too) up until around 8-9 months I would say.  Then I started not doing the first one and most of the time he wouldn't wake for it, but if he did I would do pupd (but I would only ever have to pick him up once).  With the last feed, he was naturally sleeping later and later so I just stopped it, the first night he woke I went in and resettled and he went back to sleep easily.  After that for a few days he would sleep until about 5:30 but then it was tricky because he wouldn't always go back to sleep.  Now he is sleeping straight through until 6-6:30 but getting later and later all the time.

Wiwo was the biggest tool for me, but it is generally for older babies.  I would combine it with pupd, so basically when he woke up I would go in and do pupd once to calm him, then leave the room.  If he carried on I would do it again, but I found that it was better to do it once, give him several minutes to settle, and usually he would settle on his own or else I would have to do it one more time.  But the more I went in there the longer it took to settle him.

I know that wasn't much help!  For us it just kind of happened, but very slooowwwly and bit by bit.  I've heard some women say that weaning night feeds cold turkey worked really well for them.  The best advice I can give is pick the appropriate tool (probably pupd), make a commitment to do it EVERY time your LO wakes at night for however long it takes, don't give in and be prepared to not sleep for a few nights, but if you do it properly it should work.

About the restraining and crying, when DS did that I just let him go.  And when she's crying, is she really crying?  Like if you leave does it get worse and worse, or worse then better?  DS would be crying, and if I left it would peak but then drop again and he'd calm down on his own.  But I never would have known he could settle himself if I didn't try leaving him and letting him do it.  It's so hard!!

[Ethan's Mom]

Martina, thank you so much for replying, that's really supporting me !

For the PM nap, I try hard to put him at 3pm with the thought he would wake up max at 4.15 pm, so that he could have his night time sleep at 7pm. Unfortunately lately he really seems doesnt tired even it has been 3.45 pm. He keep rolling, wriggling and laughing happily. I've darken his room, but still he was wide awake. I took him to my bed and I pretend to sleep, but then he would pull my nose & hair, laughing and moving around my bed. Finally I nurse him in a side sleeping position, but it doesnt mean he would fall asleep right away. If there is any slightest sound he would start to roll and play again. Usually he would fall asleep at 4.20pm in my breast ( 4.20 h of awake time which I think too much )

For the solid, he has started the NW since the day he had 1 time meal and that was rice cereal. Later on I tried to cut the rice cereal, but nothing was change. At that time he was one week to 6 mo.

Previously ( before 2 weeks ago ), DS was settle very very easily. He had been EASY since he was 1mo and he has STTN since 4mo. For WD, I would only read him some stories, had a bedtime prayer and voila... he would drop off so easily. Specially at night time, he would fell asleep somewhere between 6-7pm for though his latest nap was 5pm. Now things changes a lot... Turbomum in writing, guess we are the same, missing those great sleeper lil guy ! The thing I dont understand is that many of the time he doesnt look sleepy and look so happy ( the spirited type ) even it has been 3h 15min awake time. He would play, roll, wriggle on his cot. But at the end if I keep leaving him alone, he would scream and cry. The thing is that he still wide awake after 4h sleep and that makes me worry he would soon get OT. So I try hard to make him sleepy by nursing ( for though it also doesnt succeeded all the time ). I tried the pain meds, but didnt help much.

Im just wondering what should I do to make him sleep. Im just worry the APOP ( nursing ) would gone too far and create a prop. But on the other hand he would not go to sleep ((( confuse )))

Btw, is it realistic to keep expecting my 7.5mo to sleep at 7pm max ?

Martina, dont worry about questioning like a detective :-)... Im so thankful for your advice !

[~inbalance~]

Hi Ethan's Mom!

Yup, your little guy sounds like a typical 7.5month old little boy!    Mine was like that too.

First of all, I don't see how the nursing is helping get him to sleep at all.  It does seem like a last resort when he won't go to sleep, and even then it sounds like it doesn't always work or it takes awhile.  I would stop doing it altogether.  Stick to feeding him at his normal times, but not as a method to sleep.

How long has he been rolling, wriggling etc.?  Is he crawling?  It also sounds like the developmental factors are affecting his sleep big time.  We went through that also at the same age.  I had finally gotten DS to the point where he would go to sleep easily and without a fuss, then the rolling and wriggling kicked in, and eveything fell apart!  After a few weeks he did start to settle easily again.  I think you have to just be consistent and don't give up.  They will tire of their new skills eventually.  Don't worry too much, it's normal (and I hate to tell you but you'll go through it all again when he starts crawling!)

It's possible when you started the rice cereal his system didn't agree with it at first which caused the NWs, but even after you stopped he was already used to waking up, so that could have something to do with it. 

I think you are probably going to have to be patient.  With the rolling and moving around, I suggest giving him LOTS AND LOTS of time during the day to practice, even in his crib when he's awake (put him in there when you're in the shower or doing laundry and just let him go at it!).  Like I said, avoid using nursing to get him to sleep - it's obvious it's not working so there's no point.  You can only provide an environment for him to sleep, but you can't make him sleep.

7pm is a reasonable bedtime for any baby, but it really depends too on how much naptime he got for the day.  You could try 7:30 if he is waking later from is pm nap.

And remember, every baby is different, so what works for some may not work for you.  Keep at it, you will find what works!  (it's taken me 10 months!  )

[nazmommy]

Martina,
Thank you for your input!! 
I know SHE probably ready to learn a COMPLETE independent go-to-sleep but I am scared of....
1. Losing my 'baby'.  I like having my hand on her when she goes to sleep and being right there.
2. That wiwo will make her feel abandoned.  How is wiwo different than a cc method?
3. The OT monster.  I am afraid that it will take so long to get her to sleep that she will get severely OT.
4. That at night she really will be hungry and when I should have just fed her.  She is still ebf.

Any thoughts?

[Ethan's Mom]

Hi Martina, thanks a lot for the advice. I'll try not to nurse him to sleep today and start the wind down routine as before. If after the WD he still rolling over and wriggle everywhere ( doesnt seem so sleepy even it has been more than 3h 15 minutes ), should I still leave the room ? Sometimes he would scream so loud when he "trapped" in the corner of his crib. Should I keep picking him up and put him on his back side again and again or just let him do whatever he want to do ? If he doesnt go to bed after 4 hour but just do mantra cry, should I do PU/PD or let him be ? About the crawling, Im think he start to practise crawling ( but he doesnt sit unasisted yet ), he drags his body and do kind of a push up thing ( not sure how to explain :-) )

[clazzat]

Nazmommy - I know it's difficult when you feel like you are abandonning your baby, but trust me you aren't.  The difference between wiwo and cc is that with cc you leave the baby for a set period of time, regardless of what sort of cry it is.  With wiwo, you respond to the cry - so if your baby needs you you go back immediately, but if she is settling then you don't interfere. 

If you want to be there with your lo when she goes to sleep that's your choice - you just have to be aware that if she needs you to go to sleep, she will need you every time she wakes up and over time is likely to need you every time she comes into a light sleep during the night (every 45-60 mins).  If you are prepared for the possibility that you will be helping her back to sleep every hour at night, that's up to you.  Have you looked at the gradual withdrawal approach?  From what you say it sounds like you might find that less stressful than wiwo - the way it works is that you very gradually give your baby less and less help to get to sleep and move yourself out of the room.  It involves less crying, but can take a couple of weeks.

It is possible that you will have to deal with the OT monster - it is common during sleep training.  The point is, though, that if your lo can sleep independently then you won't have to deal with it again as your lo will be sleeping well.

If you think she still needs fed during the night then feed her.  I fed dd2 in the night until about 9 months - I wasn't sure that she needed it, but I wasn't sure that she didn't iykwim, and in the end she dropped the feed on her own.

(((hugs))) - hope you have had an okay night.

[~inbalance~]

nazmommy - I agree with clazzat 100%

With the night feeds I was the same, I kept feeding him and eventually he more or less stopped on his own.  I wanted to do it sooner but never was able to really.  One thing to keep in mind though is I think if they are getting enough to eat during the day, then they is not 'really' hungry.  They 'feel' hungry because she is used to eating at night, but after a few nights they don't feel hungry anymore.  But don't feel pressured to drop the feeds if you think she still needs it - you have to both be ready.  It took me to 10 months to finally be comfortable to do it (even though I wanted to for many months before!)

Ethan's mom - your LO is at a difficult stage where he can move around, but still isn't quite efficiently mobile to move out of uncomfortable situations (i.e. trapped in a corner).  I can only say that sort of stuff improves as their mobility improves.  If he is not crying, even if he is wriggling all over the place, I would still leave.  If he needs you, he'll cry for you, but if you don't leave him he won't get the chance to try and put himself to sleep.  PUPD is only for when they start crying, if he is not crying or is only mantra crying then you wouldn't use PUPD.  TBH, I remember at that stage feeling like there wasn't much I could do but just leave him in his crib, let him wriggle and roll until he had had enough, and just ride out the phase.  It does pass. 

I know exactly what you mean about dragging himself, sounds like he's doing an army crawl.    I'm sure he'll be crawling before you know it! 

[Ethan's Mom]

Thanks a lot Martina :-). You ladies are always a great great support during my though times :-) (((huggsss))). Sorry one more thing I forget to ask, lately he would also refuse the 6.30pm pre bed time feed. Im not sure he is not full enough as he had his dinner at 5pm, he just too busy wriggle. When I take him to our nursing chair, he would then start to wriggle, rolling and pulling the pillow. If Im insisting putting him to my breast he would scream and physically protest. At the end I would lay him down on his crib and sometimes he start to scream ( specially when he has been so OT ). Im so worry that he would sleep hungrily and leads to more NWs. Then usually after around 10 minutes I would try and try and try to nurse him :-P . What should I do in this case ? Thanks a lot before !

[~inbalance~]

Hmmm, TBH I'm not sure what to do with that one as DS never refused a bedtime feed.  Usually when he is fussing with BFs I stop and wait 10 mins but sounds like you tried that.

It's possible he is still full from dinner, does he eat a lot of solids?  You could try doing solids at 4:30 instead of 5 and see if that helps.  Lately I have noticed with DS that if his solids are within 1.5-2hrs of a BF he is not hungry, maybe it is the other way around for you.

Sounds like he is just really easily distracted at the moment. 

You have a very busy little boy on your hands!  Have you tried moving to a different room?  Sometimes a change of scenery helps.  When he protests feeding, maybe try putting him on the floor and letting him play for 10 mins then try again (as opposed to putting him in his crib). 

Maybe a post on the breastfeeding board might bring some new insight as well. 

[nazmommy]

Thank you ladies!  
I am also afraid of hurting her feelings as she is so used to nursing at night and then suddenly to take that away... I feel like I am taking something so sweet away from her and me! A bonding time!  I don't want to loose that closeness or have her think that I am no longer there for her.  Plus, my mom and dh think I should nurse at night.  That puts me as the odd man out.  I want to nurse too but I also want her to sleep independently!  
I know what you mean about the waking up every 45/60 minutes!  That is what she did with the paci. That's when I decided to take the paci. Unfortunately I knew the time would come when she would do that with the boob too.  It happened last night.  She was up EVERY hour.  It was horrible.
Can you tell me more about the gradual approach of moving slowly out of the room?  Would it go like having my hand on her, than not and me just sitting next her in her crib, then me slowly moving out of the room?  
My voice seems to really distract her so maybe I have to go cold turkey?  Oh boy, I don't know if I can handle that!  
I am sooooo horrible at reading cues when I am tired and questioning whether I am doing the right thing.
When would I feed her then if I feel like she needs it?  Just the 4:00 or the 1 and 4 time? I think that she is not really hungry at 1, just thinks she is.  At 4, she might actually be hungry.  I think she is going to figure out what cry she needs to make so that I think she is hungry...is that possible?  Her cry is so horrible at night when I don't nurse!
Wow, last night was horrible.  We need to do something!  
I don't know if I can handle all those tears as I am already so exhausted (I am OT!!!)  DH is hardly home and so I am on duty every night!  His work schedule is horrible so when he is home, he needs to sleep.  He sleeps in another room (a tiny guest room).  Her crib is in our room. My mom is coming this weekend so maybe we'll start on Monday.....sounds like a diet program.
What do I do if/when she gets OT from the sleep training?  I can't really go back to apop as that is what I trying to avoid!  
HELP!

[Ethan's Mom]

Thank you so much for the quick reply, Martina ! I'll try that by tommorow night.

[~inbalance~]

Here's a link for gradual removal that you might find helpful
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

I think cold turkey is harder at first but if you can get through the first few nights it works very well.  But it's not for everyone, so def think about if you'd like to try it vs. gradual removal.

I am all about the cold turkey, but I guess with the night feeds we did it more gradually (I kept talking cold turkey for months!).  I would NOT feed her at 1am if she wakes.  What I did was set a time limit, i.e. if he wakes before 2, no feeds.  Then after a few days he'd always sleep past 2, so I would move the time limit later and later until he wasn't waking until 5:30.  Then I knew once we had made it to 5:30, 6:30 was only another hour away, so that's when I stopped altogether.  But sometimes (this morning for example) I still fed him at 5:30.  Anything after 5 is pretty good for me!! 

Good luck Ethan's Mom, keep us posted! 

[nazmommy]

Is there a link that I can read up on wiwo?