HELP! I don't want to turn my child into a snacker!!(This IS a ? about EASY)

[gavinsmum1]

Okay, so I've got a lo just shy of 6 months and have been tweaking his routine for the last two weeks.  I'm really needing some advice here.  Jesse is in the midst of dropping his catnap.  He's on solids and in the middle of a gs as well.  Since he started the solids, he's starting to go 4 1/2- 5 hours between liquid feeds.  I've gotten advice from hjrmom01 (Alyssa) with regards to the sleep/A time part of my EASY, but I don't want Jesse to turn into a snacker.  Here's the how and why:
Jesse's EASY
6:00 or 6:30 wake
E 6:30 ish and then solids @ 8:00 or so
A he can handle a good 3 hours + here!!
S 9 or 9:30-11:00 or 11:30
E 11:00 or 11:30 bottle
A
E solids @ 12:30 or 1 pm
A
S 2 or 2:30-4:00 or so
E 4:00ish bottle
A
E solids @ 5:30 or so
E 6:45ish bottle
S 7:00 or a little after

Here's what's happening.  Since he had a huge jump in his A time over the last month, he started EW to let us know that the catnap had to go.  To rectify that we extended the A times and now he takes a good 2 hour nap in the am and a 1.5-1.75 hour nap in the pm.  This morning he was up at 6:40 (which is closer to what we'd like his wake up to be) and because of this later wake-up he ended up being due for his next bottle smack in the middle of his am AND pm naps.  So we split the feeds as per Alyssa's suggestion, but MY question is: is this going to turn him into a snacker?  Is there a better way of going about this or will it just take some experimentation to see if he should be getting that feed before nap and then that's it or what?  I feel like I'm constantly feeding him between bottle feeds and solid feeds.  There has to be a better way of doing this.  Ideally, I'd like him to be up at 7, down for his first nap for 10-11:30 or 12, awake until his next nap at 2:30-4, and then in bed by 7:15 or so or 7:30.  How do I fit bottles and solid feeds into the picture???
I would LOVE to get someone's perspective on this to see if there's a better way to go about Jesse's EASY.  I've looked at the suggested EASY routines already, but I'm not sure I see what that will fit.  It's like he's got the stomach of a 6 month old baby, but the EASY of a 9 month old!! AHHH!

[huntersmummyinoz]

at the moment i would suggest keeping his bottles after his naps as he doesnt seem to be waking early from that am nap from hunger. (this is provided that those naps are good solid naps, no waking in between, settles easily, etc otherwise a split feed could be recommended, bit hard to say without history IYKWIM)

also, does he still take full bottles for all of these feeds when done this way?? if you notice a bottle starting to reduce consistently then yes you'll prob need to look at a split feed, tho i would recommend only splitting one of the bottles, not two and it would depend on which bottle reduced as to which feed i would suggest to split (once again, more history would be needed to make recommendations). many bubs reach a stage where they need a split feed and it shouldnt cause snacking if only one bottle is split and you if make sure to keep a little A time between E and S, even if it is just a short story after the bottle before settling to sleep.

HTH
kirry

[gavinsmum1]

So far, Jesse hasn't woken early from his am nap because of hunger, so I think I'll probably just leave it as is. I split the feed this morning because he typically takes his second bottle of the morning between 11:15 and 11:30 and today, that may have shortened his nap.  Gradually I'd like to shift his awake time a little later, toward 7, but we're in a transition with dropping this cat nap and it's been a little unpredictable with his wake up times and nap times, etc. Today his EASY looked like this:

E 6:40 woke up/ bottle (normally he wakes around 6:00 hence the comment earlier about EW.  He usually plays in crib until 6:30 when I get up and feed him)
A
E solids @ 8:10
A
E 4 oz. He may have taken more here, I decided to split the feed and feed him the rest post-nap.
S 9:45-11:45
E 11:55 tried to feed rest of bottle, but only took 2 1/2 oz.
A
E solids at 1:00
A
E 2:25 Here I decided to breast feed him as he was getting fussy and didn't want to waste time warming up a bottle and feeding before nap)
S 2:45- ? He's still out.

I think I'll wait to see some hunger cues before his next bottle and then give solids at the usual 5:30 time and then bottle before wind down for bed.  I don't remember having this juggling issue with my first because his A times increased slowly and gradually, whereas Jesse's have been in leaps and bounds!!!

[hjrmom01]

I would not split that am bottle as he has been having a good am nap.  If you want to try split feeding I would do the pm.  As he gets more established on his solids you'll find breakfast holding him over until his next bottle and that will lengthen out past 4/4.5 hrs until his 11am and 3pm feeds become one feed in the early afternoon.  

[gavinsmum1]

Thanks, I agree.  Things were definitely a little off with the number of feeds he had today.  He's definitely taking a better am nap than in the pm, so I didn't want to have him waking from hunger, but I think that his appetite gets the best of him later in the day, so the morning should still be safe with what we're doing!

[gavinsmum1]

Alright. What a night. Jesse woke with an explosive poop. Restless and crying in and out of sleep between 5:50 and 6:20.  He then fell asleep at 6:20 until 6:40 which has been his wake up time the last few days.  I'm not sure what I need to do now with all this broken sleep going on just before his morning wake-up.  I don't want to push his A time if he hasn't slept well in the early am and force OT, but this may still be an issue with adjusting to no catnap.  Here's today's EASY:
woke 6:40
e 6:45
a
s 9:45-11:05
e 11:30 (I think he may have been OT, but he could also have been hungry as he started fussin' pretty soon after his nap and downed a 7 oz. bottle)
a
s 1:50-2:25
e 3:50
a
s 5:25 for a 15 min catnap
e 6:50
s 7:15

[gavinsmum1]

Well, EW still seems to be a problem here.  I cannot complain about anything else with Jesse's EASY.  Whether he naps wonderfully with only 2 naps or has a lousy 3 nap day, he goes to bed nicely and generally has great nights.  It's just that from 4:30 on he is just constantly in and out of sleep now.  Before it was from about 5:20 onward, but he is slamming his legs on the bed earlier and earlier.  He's not fully awake for the day, but he struggles to stay asleep and get that last good chunk of nighttime sleep.  Here's what happened today so far.  I'm just stumped as why this morning went this way, but here goes:
Woke at 4:40 slamming legs on bed. Went in to check for dirty diaper and then left.  In and out of sleep until 5:30, went in to swaddle him hoping that he would settle to sleep.  I think he did because I didn't hear anything and I feel asleep myself until I was woken up at 6:25.  I think he may have gotten up around that time, too.
E 6:40 (too tired to get myself out of bed to go right in when he woke)
A
E solids at 8:10 or so
A sooooo fussy.  normally i take him out at this time, but I knew how his early morning sleep was, so I figured I didn't want to push him to OT. I put him down at 9:10 and he farted around for 10 minutes sucking his thumb before falling asleep.  When we have a good nap, he is out sometimes before I get a chance to turn on our video monitor in the kitchen, so I knew something was up.
S 9:20-10:25 woke crying, that's not normally how he wakes!! Did not resettle though I left him to try until 10:55.
E 11:20
A
E solids at 12:25 or so
A
S 1:20-?? Just put him down.

So, was he just fussy because he had such lousy sleep early this morning? I understand the whole drop in cortisol thing making it hard for babies to go back to sleep once they wake early, but why is this becoming a pattern?  He seemed to sleep better a month ago in the morning than he has been lately.  Yesterday morning he woke at 5:30, I went in reswaddled and he fell back asleep until 6:45 am.  His naps were excellent during the day because his morning sleep was so much better.  I just don't get why if he's not going to bed OT and his A times seemed to be appropriate some days, why is he still EW?  I don't know how much further I can push his A time.  Does this mean I should be shortening his am nap if it's pushing 2 hours, just so that he's not getting too much daytime sleep.  Here's what happened yesterday to get more perspective:
woke 6:45
E 6:50
A
E solids at 8:20
S 9:50-11:50 great nap- too long?
E 11:55 5 oz
A
E solids at 1:15
A
S 3:00- 4:15 did a split bottle before and after this nap
E 4:15
A
E solids at 5:10
E 6:40
A
S 7:05 settled nicely and slept without restlessness or crying until df

Could his am nap be too long some days?  I just get the impression that something is still not right here!  This was a long post!!

[huntersmummyinoz]

i suspect things may be a wonky with sleep and ews until the catnap is dropped. how often is he having a catnap in the afternoon?

[gavinsmum1]

It's 50/50 right now.  About half of the days this week he went without it and 50% of the time he needed it to get through til bedtime.  If he has a good morning nap, then we know that he can go without, but if he short naps like he did this morning then we know he needs one. He just won't get until bedtime with his first nap being only over an hour.  We put him down only for a real quickie- 15 mins. max.  What should I be looking for during this first am A time?  Eg. This morning he was fussy, but could he have gone longer potentially? Is that why he short napped, or do you think it was OT?

[huntersmummyinoz]

while he is switching between catnap days, then you may need to either do slightly later bedtime on catnap days to avoid/reduce ew, or go no catnap and early bedtime instead.

if he did an hours nap then i would suspect UT not OT. he did a fab nap the day before on 3hrs A time so i'd be shooting for something close to that. and you also asked about the long naps, if he is still napping after 2 hrs i would wake him.

[gavinsmum1]

We always make sure to wake him at 2 hours if he's still sleeping during a nap.  He's down for a catnap right now, so I'll try putting him to bed around 7:20-7:30 tonight and see if that make a difference.  I'm only going to let him sleep for 15 min.  I suspected that he was UT this morning. Tomorrow I'll just try the 3 hours A time and see how it goes.  One other morning we had the same type of start to the day and his first nap was 1hr 20 min, which I was told could be OT (Alyssa's been giving me some great advice on this case, too).  Anyway, we'll see how tomorrow morning goes!!

[huntersmummyinoz]

One other morning we had the same type of start to the day and his first nap was 1hr 20 min, which I was told could be OT (Alyssa's been giving me some great advice on this case, too). 

1hr20 naps can be tricky if he is normally a 2 hr sleeper at this time of day (if not then it doesnt apply) - it can be either UT (so tired enuf to get thru the first transition but not the second) or OT waking and not settling into the third sleep cycle. how he wakes up and handles the next A time is usually the best indicator as to whether it was UT (wakes happy and/or handles next A time well) or OT (wakes crying and fusses during next A time/cant handle usual length next A time)

HTH
kirry

[gavinsmum1]

Well, this morning was another rough one.  Jesse had trouble settling between 3:40 and 4:20.  He kept slamming his legs down on the mattress, which has been his usual MO lately.  He also woke at 5:40 crying and I went in a swaddled him up and he zonked out until I went in and woke him just before 7 to get him fed and up for the morning.  He napped okay today.  I put him down at 10 and he slept for 1hr 40 min.  He was actually closing his eyes during wind down so I scooped him up and put him into bed and he was out quite quickly!!  He woke from his am nap and lasted another good 3 hour chunk and napped between 2:40 and 4:10 this afternoon.  We put him to bed for the night with no catnap at 7:15, but I'm curious to see if we'll see any difference in his early morning tomorrow as he had a wee bit of a shorter nap this morning.  At least on the days where he has no catnap, he's been a lot more settled and less restless than he was a week ago.  I think his body's gradually adjusting to dropping the catnap and it's just a matter of getting that A time right during the day- especially the first one so that his am nap is a good one!!

[gavinsmum1]

So quick question here.  If Jesse was up at 5:40 this morning and did not go to bed do I have a right to pull out some of my hair? (other than the hair that's already falling out post pregnancy)
No, seriously.  He had a good nap this morning- if he takes a good nap this afternoon is it better to have him in bed just after 6 or catnap and then bed a little more toward 7:15 or so?  If he short naps this afternoon he'll still need a catnap, but this morning started so early for him I'm just not sure what is best to discourage the EW's we're having.
Okay, I'm thinking that we'll try the early bedtime.  He was put down at 2:15 so even if he only does an hour and a half nap, then he can still go down for bed around 6:45 which is not much earlier than he's going to bed currently on a good nap day.  Could he be ready for even more A time?  He handled being awake from 5:40 until his first nap at 9:05 (I saw him snooze for 10 minutes around 6:15 or so maybe that recharged him a bit) and then he napped for 1 hr 50.  He did 3 hrs 10 min A time before going down for this nap.  Maybe that's the key here, just increase a little more.  He hasn't been OT in a good while...

[gavinsmum1]

So just thought about it.  I put Jesse down for his afternoon nap after 3 hours 20 minutes A time!  Just had to wake him up after an hour and 50 minute nap.  Maybe I've underestimated his A times AGAIN!  What happens when you get to the point where A times and naps exceed the 12 1/2 hour day? Do you start cutting naps a little shorter.  More like 1 hour 40 or so instead of 2 hours?  I'm thinking his A times need to be bumped up again, but instead of causing EW again, I want to keep his naps a little shorter and his night a little longer.  Today's EASY looked like this:
wake 5:40 snoozed for 10 minutes around 6:15
E 6:40
A
S 9:05- 10:55
E
A
S 2:15-4:05
E
A
S I'm guessing bedtime will be shortly after 7:15, but you see the problem?  His day started earlier and is ending around the same time as yesterday! Looks like an increase in all A times is the way to go.  What do you think, Kirry, Alyssa?