toddler refusing to go to sleep

[ishkin]

Hello there ladies,
recently DS#1 (2y4m old,who was always a very easy-going regarding going to bed) has started making trouble at bedtime (both the daytime nap and actual bedtime). He is in BBB, he refuses to lie down, constantly comes out of the bed and says that he doesn't want to go to sleep.

All of this might be accompanied by yawning, eye-rubbing etc - he is pretty tired. He is also trying to buy some time after we finish our bedtime routine (which includes bath, pjs, brushing teeth, couple of songs and a story while he is drinking his bottle of milk) and put him to bed - like asking for some more milk/water, another song etc.He just likes us going back to him, or he just comes out on his own.
The same at naptime at weekends (he is in daycare during the week and naps fine there). If we give up and let him not have his nap (which we usually do cause we can't force him to sleep) he ends up falling asleep immediately if we decide to go out and get into the car and start driving.

His routine has been the same for some time now - he used to wake 6:30 or 7ish, have his nap at 12:30 and go to bed at 19:30 (was asleep in 10 mins or so). Now it takes him around 1 hour to fall asleep...

Since the summer started and the days has gotten longer he is waking earlier - around 5:45 or 6, since it is very tough to completly darken the room. So he is more tired at bedtime, I guess OT has started to play its role and now it is a vicious circle of OT at bedtime - takes longer to fall asleep - not enough nighttime sleep and therefore another reason for EW.

The plan I am implementing now is putting him to bed an hour earlier , so he is in bed by 18:30 and I am darkening the room as much as possible for the mornings - still the same story, takes an hour to fall asleep but at least he is asleep by 19:30 and it seems that he is waking a bit later (6:15 or so)

Now I have been wondering if there is anything else I should do : perhaps his routine is not suitable for his age anymore? And what can I do to deal with his coming out of bed and refusing to go to sleep routine ?
I tried explaining, saying that mommy needs her alone time to eat and get ready for bed, taking him back without talking (he just breaks down in a tantrum)...Nothing works really well..DH usually gives in to him and gives him extra milk, sings him extra songs etc, keeps going in and out which in mine opinion is a bed idea... ...Perhaps all of this is a developmental things, like him being afraid to miss out on anything, but I really at loss how to deal with it.

Need suggestions ,and thanks in advance!!!

[ishkin]

Oh and forgot to mention. He naps between from 12:45 or so till 14:30 or so at daycare (sometimes a bit less and sometimes a bit more). And he definitely behaves like he is OT at the evenings - very cranky.

[speechie]

Hi- any teething to add into the mix? He does sound OT from your description. My LO is stalling at bedtime too- asks for water, potty, more books, etc etc etc. I just tell him that it's nightnight time. Give him a sippy cup of water in his bed, and say we'll read more tomorrow. Repeat endlessly. I've really had to be firm and consistent. He's till in a crib, so it's easier to do WI/WO.
For comparison, here's our schedule at 23 mos:
Wake:7:15AM
Nap:12:30-2:30
Bedtime:8:15PM
He's been shortening naps recently.   

[ishkin]

Yep - his last pair of molars are coming through...Bet that doesn't help with the sleep either, but I am pretty sure its not the reason (at least not the only one) for this whole mess.

The routine your describe with your LO is similar with what we had not a long while ago...And when he was in his crib WI/WO was so easy - do it couple of times and he gives up and goes to sleep...But now it's so much complicated- first of all he dropped the "mommy come here cause I need something act" mostly - he doesn't call for me, he just walks out of the room, and he almost doesn't ask for anything (sometimes some milk, he also got a sippy cup in his bed in case he is thirsty), he just cries "don't want to sleep"! . Seems like he thinks he is missing something when he sleeps.
I take him back- he comes out again, and no matter how I do it (no talking/talking with him) it gets him to tantrum pretty soon and then its impossible to calm him down 

Last night for example: put him to bed at 18:30 (after a pretty long windown during which I also did some role-playing with his stuffed animals to explain to him why people need to sleep at night and why his refusing to go to bed is really interfering with mommy's and daddy's rest). He was walking out and I was taking him back for 20 mins or so (including hysterical crying and all), while my DH was bathing our baby. When I nursed the baby and DH started taking DS#1 to bed. After a while he convinced him to stay in bed, gave him more milk I think. Then DH fell asleep on the couch.
All was quiet for 30 mins (it was already19:40 or so) when DS#1 walked out saying he doesn't want to sleep and asked for his daddy . I said the daddy was asleep and showed him, at which point he relaxed (probably decided - OK, they are not having fun without me after all) and agreed to go to bed. Checked on him at 20:00 -was asleep. Then he woke up around 22:00 (he has also got a cough now).He came out of the  room saying that he doesn't want to sleep, DH was on his comp and said nothing to him and didn't take him back. So he just stood near him for a couple of mins, went back to bed all by himself. Was on and off until 24:00 coughing. Woke up at 4:30 (mommy I don't want to sleep) and I said go to sleep and he did. Was up and about at 5:30 and that's the beginning of the day for us.
Will see how the nap goes, but I am pretty sure he will fight it as usual (I am just hoping he is so tired that he will fall asleep in the car on the way home and we will just transfer him to the bed...)

I dunno where all this coming from , he was always so happy to go to bed  Dunno what to do with him...I am sure the new baby is also adding to the mix, maybe he is feeling jealous or something...

[speechie]

Hugs- that sounds really rough...
To me, it does sound like there's a part of it that could be teething or discomfort related- molars, restlessness, coughing, tantrums.
How did things go this weekend?
Have you tried any pain meds once or twice just to rule out discomfort?
I've kept my LO up a bit later for the holiday weekend/company, and he's actually gone down gratefully the past 2 nights as he was so sleepy. Still with stalling if I put him to bed before 8PM.
My tactic at the moment is:
-put him to bed a bit later than usual when I know he's really tired.
-long winddown, active daytime playing.
-get him back in the pattern of going to sleep right away without stalling for about 3 nights, then move bedtime earlier and cut naps shorter as needed to do that...

My LO has always been on the low end of sleep needs.
My hat is off to you- dealing with a baby and a toddler can't be easy. Sending you sleepy vibes to your house.

[ishkin]

Thanks Cathie, hope the sleepy vibes reach us soon 

The weekend was not so good...Friday he napped from 13:10 till 15:10 (fell asleep in the car), put him to bed at 19:45 or so and was asleep by 20:30 after numerous walk outs of his room. Woke up at 5:30. Saturday refused to nap, we put him down at 18:15 or so and he was so tired that fell asleep immediately. Woke up 5:40.
Today the same - woke up at 5:40 after falling asleep around 20:30..

About pain meds-  they will not help with the cough, so gotta wait until its over...I am pretty sure the cough is not what wakes him up - he wakes up and then starts coughing and its interferes with his going to sleep again, but the initial NW are because of OT, I am sure.
And the molars - I am not sure they are bothering him (last pair that came through didn't) and if they do then not a lot. I really don't like giving him meds unless I am really sure he needs them..

I am pretty sure now the problem is with our routine - he has EW because of OT, then he goes to sleep at daycare at 12:30 (a stretch of 7 hours!!!) , takes him a while to fall asleep (because he is already OT and wired), sleeps for 2 hours (also too long for his age I guess?) ,wakes up around 15:00 and then the usual bedtime of 19:30 is way to early - so either we enforce it and he fusses around cause he is not sleepy and eventually is really wired up, or we move bedtime to 20:30 or 21:00 which is way too late for us!

So am not sure how to tackle it  Move the naps earlier and cut them short to allow for earlier bedtimes and hopefully less fussy bedtime? What about his OT - cutting the naps will probably make it worse and so EW can become even worse...

Got any ideas?

[speechie]

Hmmm, yes- with the EWs I'd move the nap earlier, limit to 2 hours max, then put down to bed 5 hours after the wakeup time. Also- I never let Nick sleep past 2:30 PM any more. Otherwise he's not tired enough for bedtime
What do you think?
Totally understand about pain meds- lots of folks don't use them unless they are definitely needed. Any thoughts on homeopathy- some good remedies out there.
Hugs and hope it gets better soon.

[ishkin]

Thanks for the support!
Unfortunatelly I am not sure I will be able to totally implement this plan 
DS#1 is in daycare 5 days a week, and they put them to bed at 12:30 (I asked them yesterday and they said they cannot manage to do it before since they have lunch). Besides, with his current mood he won't go to sleep before everyone else do. So no moving the nap earlier (I can try to do it only when he is with me on weekends)
They told me it sometimes takes him a while to fall asleep, but he never sleeps more than 2 hours, so he is always up before 15:00.
That means that I can only implement the 5 hour A time before bedtime, and always put him to bed before 20:00, maybe I will implement a slightly longer winddown, change it a bit.
I hope that will be enough - perhaps with bedtime at 20:00 he will fight less than with bedtime at 19:30 and go to sleep more willingly and actually fall asleep faster. If he catches up on his sleep (i.e. starts waking later) then I will ask the daycare to cut his nap at 1.5 hours, so he doesn't sleep later when 14:30, like u said.
And then I will move the bedtime a bit more earlier,like 19:30ish. Or I can just leave the little bit later bedtime (lie 20:00 or a bit more) if he has a long nap (like 2 hours). My hubby would surely like that, he complains he doesn't see DS enough.

What do you think, will it work?

[speechie]

It's worth a try.
also wanted to mention a natural sleep aid that I've used with my MD's permission to help reset my son's internal sleep clock after a hospitalization. We used melatonin for 2 nights to help him fall asleep naturally. I know some folks here use it when traveling to help with jet lag as well. I just wanted to let you know that it worked well for us. I gave 1/2 of a 3 mg tablet crushed in applesauce 30 mins prior to bedtime.
Also, we've used homeopathic/natural remedies to help with calming/aiding sleep.

I hope your plan works for you- fingers crossed!

[ishkin]

Thanks

I actually have melatonin - I am a bit of insomniac myself so it helps sometimes to reset the biological clock. I will give it a thought, thanks for the idea.

Tonight kept the bedtime 5 hours after wakeup - he napped at daycare from 12:30 till 14:30, so he was in bed by 19:40. Stayed in for 15 mins, came out said he needed to pee, went to pee, came out again said he needed to pee again, did it again, I took him back to bed. Third time he came out was looking for something he needed, I took him back again and sat there with my back to him facing the door , not talking to him.

He rolled around in bed a bit, sighed a couple of times, talked to himself, and eventually fell asleep around 20:20 or a bit before.
He was completely calm, not wired at all, and was really behaving like he just wasn't sleepy at the time we put him down (although when we started the routine he said he was sleepy and scratched his ears which for him is a sign of tiredness).

Another interesting thing is that he is not nearly as cranky for the last couple of days, even though nothing has changed in his routine yet. I am starting to question my assumption he was cranky because he of OT - perhaps its something else, like the baby or the molars?!

So dunno- perhaps 5 hours of A time is indeed too little for him now - he had a huge developmental leap in the last month, became much more verbal etc. I will give the 5 hours A time till bedtime a try for 3-5 days, and if his falling asleep routine will stay the same and EW will not improve will push the bedtime a bit later - say 20:00 or 20:15 and see how that goes.

I guess it is all trial and error now 

Thanks again, and I will post our progress!

[speechie]

YEP! It is trial and error at this point. It does sound like a 5 hour A time may be too short?
FWIW, Nick's behavior when teething is on and off- sometimes it wrecks his sleep, other times he seems just fine. Some weeks he'll be off the wall with hitting- then I'll feel the points of teeth just under his gums. 
Glad he's calmer, and sounds like the bedtime was calmer- 40 mins is still a bit long to fall alseep, so, yes, maybe he's ready for a longer A time?

Hope things go better!

[gpmom]

My dd is 2 and she has a "magic" time.  I have to have her awake from her nap by about 2:15 so she will go to sleep without hassel at 730.  If I let her sleep later, she is cranky and wants more stories etc.  She is still in a crib which might help. 
Sounds like you are making some head way.  If it is the new baby, what about a special mommy or daddy time b4 the wind down.  Do a puzzle or something that is just for him and maybe that will put him in a better mood.

Good luck

[ishkin]

Thanks guys, I am sure it will eventually sort itself out, it usually does, just need to hang there..
In the meanwhile getting used to starting my day at 4:30 (sigh).

I am giving the 5 A time a try for another couple of days, although I am pretty sure now its not going to work. Then I will try to increment it by half an hour, give it a 5 day try, and if that doesn't work either increment it another half an hour. I have a feeling our eventual bedtime will be around 20:30, with two hour nap that is. If I can convince daycare to cut his nap to 1.5 eventually, maybe it will go back to 20:00, we will see.

And thanks gpmom, we will try to do more special daddy-mommy-DS1 time before bedtime, it will certainly be easier if we put the baby to sleep first.

I will post our progress (hopefully will see some soon!!!)