17mo takes forever to fall asleep & long nws

[deckchariot]

It's definitely worth it to try a second nap - if you can get her to take even a catnap, that might help make up some of the OT-ness.  I know the no co-sleeping will be hard.  {{{{{hugs}}}} on that.  With the early bedtime, I never did more than 30 min early, or it never worked for us, so it doesn't always need to be a super early bedtime.  I found that 30 min early worked like a catnap for us, any earlier than that, she either wasn't tired enough to fall asleep, or she was, but then woke up early because she was well rested.

[lilflav]

The second nap was a no-go, unless she falls asleep in the car when we leave soon.  I do put her to bed between 7-8 depending on how her schedule went that day.  And have been putting her down closer to 7 due to the shorter naps.  Sometimes she falls right to sleep, sometime she doesn't. Before this no matter what time she fell to sleep she fortunately would still wake at 7-8.  So now we are dealing with shorter naps (1hr 10min-1hr30 min) and ews.  I am at a loss too! 

[becky1969]

Hey!

Just had a quick read thru, and these thoughts came to me:

1) Is she teething? Even if there's not any outward signs of teething 17-18 months is the classic time that those awful canines come in.  They typically start bothering a child long before signs appear.  I know you say she hasn't been the best sleeper in the past, but those marathon sessions of falling to sleep that happen every few days sounds like discomfort/pain to me.  IN other words, some days she isn't hurting and she falls asleep pretty quickly.  Other days her teeth are bugging her and she rolls around for an hour or two and then also has NWs.  I might try pain relief before bed to see if that helps.

2) The NWs where she doesn't really cry but just rolls around also makes me wonder about discomfort from teeth or even some kind of a food sensitivity/allergy.  Since you're sitll BF I'm wondering if perhaps she's lactose intolerant, or if you have too much fiber, etc. -- the usual culprits.  You might try eliminating some of the more common allergens from hers and your diets and see if that helps.


3) You probably need to be more consistent with how you treat wakings, whether they be at bedtime or a NW.  I KNOW this is hard b/c you're exhausted and are worried about her getting further OT.  taht's the reason I used for a long time too when my son was having 2 hour NWs.  But your method isn't working long term.  I think if you use the same method each and every time (WI/WO strikes me as best option) I think you'll have better success.  I also think that if she's awake but NOT crying, leave her be! Yes, it might take her 2 hours to fall back to sleep, but the next time it will probably take her 1h50 and then the next time 1h30 etc.  I also went thru this very same thing with my son and within 3 days he was able to put himself back to sleep within minutes.  He still to this day wakes in the night and my DH hears him chatting on the monitor.  But it never lasts for more than a few minutes now. 

Waking in the night is natural for children and adults.  It's important that we teach them how to fall asleep on their own by simply giving them a chance to do it.  Also, make sure you've eliminated any possible pain/discomfort culprits by giving pain meds before bed (and at NW if enough time has passed & she's crying) and trying an elimination diet.

HTH!

[lilflav]

Hmm, thanks for the input. Teething is always in the back of my mind, she was a late teether and just got her 5-8th teeth throughout the month of June (when this mess started, again).   The nw's have been short, she is mostly back to sleep w/in 20 min.  Also her falling to sleep in the pm is gradually getting better, and she is mostly playing now.  It's just the rolling around in the am, which makes me think accumulated ot. 

What allergens do you think I should cut out?  I don't think she is lactose intolerant, she spends some weekends at my dads & gets lots of milk & dairy there & sleeps great & has had milk at home & it makes no difference.

I think #3 is the biggest culprit & the hardest to correct     I have decided that next week (week of the 14th) I will st for nws too, as I'll be able to be consistant then.  Hopefully her ot won't spiral more out of control!  There doesn't seem to be much I can do to fix it!  Any tips on fighting ot are needed!  And I am going to need LOTS of moral support too!

Maybe there is a ghost in her room.  OOHHHH!

[skatty]

Hello I have just had a quick read through and it sounds like she is so far into OT that she is finding it impossible to stay asleep, in my experience this cannot be fixed with naps and the best way is an extremely early bedtime, my daughter has never been a good napper but we resolve OT with an early bedtime. I know you are exhausted but I don't think staying in the room with her is helping her sleep at this point and definitely not rocking! It is awful but WIWO really is the best thing at this age unless they have extreme SA. It is a case of working yourself up to knowing you may have a couple of hard nights but your DD will be able to go back to sleep independantly. Would you be able to try a much earlier bedtime, 6pm at the latest after a short nap? I know some people can't because of schedules and others can't because it seems wrong but it works like nothing else at times! My dd has given up her nap, is nearly 3 and is in bed between 5 and 5.30pm every night! If we leave it too late she finds it hard to settle, has NWs and EWs, it is not forever but her sleep needs have to come before our needs to want to keep her up kwim? I would work on hvaing her in bed 4½ hours after her nap ends whilst she is so OT, my dd has when on one nap been to bed at 4.30pm, yes we are lucky that she will add on lost sleep to her night but she can't be the only one! If it will help her get a decent amount of sleep in then try getting her to be ridiculously early, she has a huge sleep debt by now so it is unlikely she will be ready to start her day at 3am  Have you read about the science of sleep, Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Weissbluth is fantastic for selling the idea of sleep begets sleep  From what I have read on your thread built up OT has caused the probs whether they started from teething or anything else and if you can fix that then NWS, EWs and naps should settle down. You will get through this with some work, consistancy and willpower, I will join your support system 

[deckchariot]

wi/wo always worked a treat for us (still does) - though it was rough for the first 2 nights (4 hrs the first night, 1.5 the next), but by night 3, only 20 min, and then she did it herself on night 4.  I know it's hard for those NWs when you're so tired and all you want to do is go to sleep.  We will be here to support you!!

I've never tried a super early bedtime like Skatty suggested - but I'd give it a go, since an extra nap isn't working.  Have you ever tried it?  She might take to it, and you can get a jump on beating that OT, which will make wi/wo at night easier (for both of you!).

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi

Just reading and really not much to add in terms of pinpointing culprits. I have experienced similar nightmare bedtimes with my DS (recently a 4h giddy-turned-screaming fest) where he just can't settle. The culprits for my experiences I narrowed down to:

 * teething pain. He cuts teeth 4 at a time. Currently waiting on the 2y molars (he's 17m old) now and NWs have started again, so guess they've started moving under the gum. If I suspect teething, I give him pain meds so that I can rule it out if his nighttime behaviour doesn't change with the meds

 * needing a number 2. Madness it may sound but it's happened a couple of times with us. He just won't settle, is giddy, won't lie still, constantly up and down, tossing and turning, then gets really upset because he literally is past the point where he can sleep at all. When I notice things aren't moving daily, I intervene with an orange based smoothie or juice box around lunchtime as this usually gets us results by bedtime. Currants / raisins also work well for us. We had 2 terrible nights a few months ago - bedtime took 3hours, was a nightmare. Had to hold him to sleep in his bed through all the jolts eventually. After 2 days, tried juices etc just in case it was the problem. DH saw his face during a 'movement'; he screwed his face up, tensed, cried out, was shivering. Then absolutely fine!!

 * way way OT. Pretty much as Skatty posted. So OT they can't cope; they just don't know what to do with themselves. In my experience, intervening and fussing is the worst thing to do here. Too much involvement from me just makes the hell last longer (i.e. the 4h bedtime saga). My fussing is just more stimulation. I have learnt to either leave the room and just walk away and give him some time, before going back to the door and reassuring from there. If that fails, DH goes in and will stroke his head - but it's rare. Rocking, touching, talking, stroking, anything by me seems to make the situation worse. The 4h saga was resolved by my giving up, taking DS downstairs with me and sitting him with me in the sofa, cuddled up watching dull tv for 20 mins til he had calmed down and was 'zoned'. Then I took him upstairs, lay him in his cot, kissed and said 'time to sleep now' as I usually would. He cried out when he couldn't settle, and I sat next to him for a few jolts (saying and doing nothing). On other occasions, I've had to get into his cot and hold him in my arms or BF to sleep (really really last resort for me).

 * thirsty / too warm / too cold. I think as my DS has got older, I've forgotten to watch out for this simple thing. So for NWs etc, I will still offer water. Recently he's started NWs (urghhh) and I've been thinking teeth... but it could be the sudden dip in temperature too. So I've started taking action so I can / cannot rule it out. If that makes sense.

 * noise / light / reassurance. Sometimes, when my DH has had time off and been around alot, I notice that in the days after my DS needs a little more reassurance that I am there. For example, when he stirs in his sleep he seems more likely to wake etc. So I reassure and make sure that he knows I am there and everything is normal, then leave; no fuss from me. Once I noticed this, I started to try and preempt it a little; I'll leave a bedroom light on upstairs and leave his door more ajar than normal so that there is a little more light that usual, or make sure that he can hear 'sounds' of the house.

 * Gradual Withdrawl. With the rough bedtimes and NWs with us, I've found that my fussing or intervening too much does not help. A while back, I managed to make myself his sleep prop again within just a couple of days of 'reasurring him' by staying with him while he went to sleep. So now whenever we hit the rough patches I am hard with myself. I'll AP once, twice at best to get him to sleep if the OT is madness (waking with every jolt etc so I will keep my hand on him til he's through that) BUT then it's back to old school GW for us. I move away from the cot at first, so sitting half way between his cot and the door. I just sit, occasionally repeat the 'time to sleep now' mantra we have, gradually moving towards sitting (curled over so no face visible) by the door. Then I open the door a little, and move to the other side, lying in the doorway so he can see I am there, see my head. Again, repeat mantra now and then, tell him what a good boy he is when he lies down and tries to settle. Reasurrance not converstation. Then I move my head, gradually, out of view but repeat the mantra. Quiet, wait. If he's settled down, I'll whisper good boy, mantra. And wait. I stay quiet as much as possible. I stay by his door out of view til he's asleep. If he wakes later, I go straight there and reassure, then return to the door (other side) and as before, reassure with voice.

Don't know if any of that helps. I think that how you respond to the NWs and EWs can set the behaviour. If you react in a way that tells your babe you've rescued them (taking them to bed or feeding), to me, it affirms that they were right to cry out and not settle themselves. I know it isn't easy. For GW I spent a long time sleeping on a hardwood floor in my son's room, before graduating to the carpet in the hall (hurrah!!). It is tough. But right now, it's tough on both of you. Babes need sleep. A good night's sleep. They all deserve that and so do Mamas. Sometimes it's rough getting that sleep, but unbroken sleep for both of you needs to be the goal, IM

Waffled. Sorry.

Charlotte (a waffler)

[A pair of Charlies]

In all of that, forgot to say our routine.... we're still on a strict 5h A time rule here. If I go over that, things get a bit wonky, nap might get shorter or he just seems out of sorts.

My DS seemed to need less sleep than most for quite a while - in the run up to the 1 nap switch. As soon as we made the switch, he started taking a 3h nap and a good 11h+ at night. Was great. A few weeks back, I've started to cut DS's nap a little (which made him a little OT in my error) down to 2h30 as he just wasn't settling for bedtime well. He had been having a nap from 12 -3pm, then couldn't realistically settle til 8pm to sleep. Which he wouldn't do; almost like he was too tired to sleep but wasn't sleepy enough to sleep before 8pm. Hard to explain. Too tired but not sleepy enough and then a 1minute long window where he then went into OTdrive.

So, I cut the nap. unfortunately, DH and I didn't sort our own routine out in time so he was still getting to bed too late (on his old times) which is how we made him OT. 

Now it's a 7am wakeup and BF, 8am brekkie, 11.30 lunch, 12 - 2.30 nap (2h30 latest wakeup), 5.30 supper, 6.30 bath and 7.30 in bed. If the nap has been short, I really keep that bedtime routine brief and get him into bed for 7 if I can. The earlier bedtime works for us (often gets us a 12h sleep) whereas I never get success with a catnap.

Ermmmmm... after a really good night's sleep, I often find that he will crash out earlier than normal for his nap and will be less active and generally desparate for sleep all day.

HTH

Charlotte

[lilflav]

Thanks all for the advice!  I skimmed through it as my comp is broken & I don't have a lot of time on this one.  She is cutting 2 or maybe 4 (or more) teeth.  I realized this after a total meltdown last night before bedtime.  To my amazement, after calming her down & giving meds I put her in the crib, walked out & she talked away for 30 min then fell asleep!  I gave one dose of tylenol in the night & she slept until 7am.  I am going to give early bedtimes/naps another try until the teething is over.  It's easy to tell when she is ready for a nap (4-5 hrs), but we have the giddy problem here for bedtimes too, so that will touch & go.

I will post more later, Thanks again for all the support!

[lilflav]

Hello, thanks again for all the support, it is truely appreciated!!  She had a good 2hr10min nap yesterday, at bedtime I put her in the crib at ~5hr10 min A time & it took her ~50 min to finally fall asleep.  I did 2 wi/wo & she fell asleep on her own.  So you think that if I put her to sleep about 30 min earlier she would've fallen asleep quicker?  I do get nervous about it, but I guess don't have much else to try else to try atm.  I think on a rare occassion she was too hot/cold, I offer her h2o if I think she might be thirsty, & she makes many bms so that isn't a problem.  When her teeth are better hopefully I'll still have the guts to st for the nws too.  I just hope the nightmare of last time doesn't repeat!  Oh, and I am putting her back in the crib after her nws before 5am.  Last night she made it to 4:30, so maybe it's working, fingers crossed!

[deckchariot]

all in all, that sounds like a pretty good day.  I'd go ahead and try an earlier bedtime.  Based on what some others have experienced, that may do the trick for you!

[lilflav]

Hello, here's another bad update   Nothing has changed & unfortunately I am probably making things worse.  The extra early bedtimes just never happened.  The best we managed was getting her into bed at 6:50 & asleep by 7:20 w/ dh standing by her bedside while I was at work.  I lost the nerve to st for nw's, but I am going to start this Sun.  She sometimes goes to sleep easily w/ out me in the room, sometimes she needs me there for a short time then I can leave her be, and sometimes I wi/wo/stay & comfort until I give in & stand by her crib.  And I know this is making it worse.  Unfortunately months & months of st'ing w/ only brief periods of independant sleep has worn me down.  On top of that I am afraid to let her cry for too long because the last time she cried for 2 hours dh burst in & grabbed her & rocked her to sleep then flipped on me & asked me what kind of a mother am I to let her cry for 2 hours.  She goes to sleep just fine for naps but they have been short.  Only 1hr20min today on top of a 9.5 hr night last night.  :*(

[A pair of Charlies]

oh honey 

[deckchariot]

{{{{{hugs}}}}}} I'm sorry it's been so rough.  If you need a break, you need a break.

[lilflav]

I may have figured out why she sometimes falls asleep easily and others she doesn't.  Her daddy works a lot & when he comes home from work they only have about 2 hrs before she goes to bed & is gone by the time we wake up.  She gets extremely fussy & clingy to him when he gets home & I think that is why she is fighting bedtime.  Yesterday she spent the whole day with him & went to sleep right away w/out a peep.  I'll have to test this theory.