please help - I can't make sense of anything

[lilac83]

Lizzie explained exactly how I was thinking you could use the gradual withdrawl! Hopefully this works better for him since you won't be coming and going, which at this point is obviously just making him mad.

Did he get anymore sleep today besides the short naps? He sounds like he is in a bit of an OT cycle and this tends to happen a lot with the 2-1 switch but on top of that he's got the SA and different carers than normal. Hang in there, perhaps do some early bedtimes if he doesn't nap well. I hope the plan Lizzie typed out above will help!

[mmom]

Thanks ladies.  I will definitely try that.  I spent a lot of time reading and re-reading the thread on WI/WO and gradual removal last night.

It took us 1.5 hours to get my LO down last night.  Since he is OT, we tried an early bed time, but he fought it.   I had to take him out of his room and go into my room and lay with him until he calmed.  He just wouldn't stop screaming and was actually pointing towards the door in his room like "get me outta here!"  Once I laid with him and saw that he was relaxed, we went into his room and I stood with my hand on him until he was totally asleep.  He kept jolting awake and looking up at me, so I stayed there until I was sure.  He woke up even earlier this morning though, which isn't good.

I think we got ourselves into even more trouble because we tried to let him CIO a few times, since he kept getting more wound up when we went in and out of his room.  Now the second we start the wind-down, he starts crying.  So I will probably have to go backwards for a few days and stay with him and then do the gradual removal.  My FIL is watching him today and that is what I told him to do.

Thanks again for the support!!

[lilac83]

The CIO could have created a bit of crib fear, so definitely stay with him for a bit and then slowly start leaving the room again. This shouldn't take too long since he was initially an independent sleeper. Changing up your wind down a bit may help as well. For instance, if being in his room is too much for him right now, get him sleepy in another room and then go with him to his room. Getting himself worked up is probably a big cause of these drawn out bedtimes, so hopefully by him getting relaxed before even entering his room he won't have such negative feelings about it. And then of course start the process of going into his room sooner and sooner.

[mmom]

Thanks, I didn't even think of changing the actual winddown.  I will do that.  I hope we get back on track soon!

[LizzieN]

Since our LO has been sick with the cold, I read him his fav book (nothing else will do, he screams if I pick up something different, which is new) and I give him more cuddles after it than I used to have to do...so ours has changed, but he goes down again now without a peep or chats to his toys for a few minutes then he is off ..... we are having a lot of issues keeping him asleep at the moment, but that's another story....It did take me a while to realise that his needs had changed at bed time, good luck finding your "new" way
xx Lizzie

[mmom]

Thanks Lizzie.  I am sorry you are having trouble with your LO.  It is never ending isn't it?  One big guessing game....In the beginning of all of this, I never thought my LO would be almost 1 year old and we would have sleep issues.

I tired the method last night.  The good thing is we didn't have a 2 hour screaming marathon.  It was just time consuming because I had to sit in his room for over 1/2 hour.  He just couldn't settle.  I am not sure if it was because I was in there or I still can't get the A time right.  Plus he kept lifting up to see me through the slats of his crib.  But I will keep at it!

[lilac83]

It sounds like he may have just been making sure you weren't leaving him, since last night was the first night he didn't know what was going on. That's great that he only took about 30min to settle though, much improvement! Hopefully tonight will go even better!

I know what you mean about thinking once they were a year sleep issues would be over. That was my thoughts too. I didn't realize how time consuming the 2-1 switch was and then throw teething on top of things. 

[mmom]

Lilac, I feel teething is a never ending issue.  Don't teeth pop in for 2 years?

I feel like we are in a never ending OT cycle and I don't know how to fix it.  Yesterday wasn't horrible.  The problem was my in-laws didn't follow my instructions and let my LO sleep longer during the 1st nap.  He took a 1.5 hour nap, had a 4 hour A time and by the time he needed another nap, it was late.  So we only let him sleep for 1/2 hour at 3 - 3:30 and tried to get him down at 6:30.  But he didn't go down until 7:05 ish.  But he woke at 5 this morning.

Then today, my inlaws put him down and he slept from 9:30 - 10:30 and wouldn't go down again.  I told them to put him down at 2:30 and he wouldn't  When I picked him up at 4, he was still awake.  My FIL said that he was biting on everything and drooling like crazy, so he suspects the teeth are bothering him (we still only see 2 tiny white spots on the top gums).  He fell asleep in the car for 15 minutes but I woke him, because I didn't want a late bed time.   I tried putting him down at 6:15 and he thrashed around again until 6:45.

What should I do about this lack of sleep?  My MIL is convinced that he just doesn't need sleep.  But he is averaging 10 - 11 hours of sleep every day and that can't be enough.  He fights it like crazy and I don't know how to fix it.

[lilac83]

I agree with you that 10-11 hours for an entire day is not enough. Even if he's low on sleep needs he should still be getting at least 2-3 more hours than that. Is he not falling asleep because he's playing or is he fussing? You may have a LO who gets more excitable/active when he gets OT. This can make things tricky.

Have you tried rubbing numbing gel on his gums before nap or giving pain reliever about 30min before he's due to go down? That might help a bit. Also, when they're teething their A times tend to shorten. So, I would really aim for as close to 3hrs as possible and really try not to go over 3.5hrs. What was his A time yesterday that resulted in the 1.5hr nap? Yesterday would really be a good day to use as an example and if it's better for you to do a long AM nap and a short PM catnap, that's perfectly fine. The EW this morning may actually be a result of teething instead of the routine.

Teething actually lasts for 3 years. There's the 8 baby teeth that cut usually before LO is 1, then the 1yr molars and eyeteeth and finally the 2yr molars. So we have a couple more years to look forward to.

[mmom]

Ughhh, 3 years!  lol  I am exhausted from this 1!

Yesterday probably wasn't a good example either.  My FIL tried to put him down at 8:40 (after waking at 5 ) and he wouldn't go down.  He finally went to sleep at 10 something.  I think part of that was that is isn't comfortable with them.  I am home with him tomorrow, so I will aim for an earlier nap. 

We use teething get (at least I do) and Tylenol and sometimes motrin at night.  I don't think my inlaws followed the instructions of the teething gel though.

I really want to get him caught up on sleep.  So, you think really short A's huh?  I am telling DH your advice while I am typing and his response is "that is impossible.  You are going to torture both of you trying to get him to sleep."  Can you tell we are exhausted from this?  I will try though.  I know he is so OT now.  He hasn't had a good day/night in almost 2 weeks.  How many days of short A's does it take to get caught up?  Or does it depend on when these teeth come in?

[lilac83]

Usually when you're going through the 2-1 transition, the first A time stays around 3.5 hrs but the nap keeps getting shorter. The shorter A works because the LO doesn't need a long nap here and usually there's a bit of OT so they are tired earlier. Then the second A time sort of depends on what works best after a shorter nap. So if he's having a 45min AM nap, then I would start off with somewhere between 3/3.5hrs and see what it gets.

Has he been falling asleep faster for you at night?

[mmom]

Ughhh, not a good day.  My LO woke at 5:30.  He actually had almost an 11 hour night, which is good.  I thought that I would try putting him down really early, which backfired.  At 8:30, I started the wind down.  When I first put him in his crib, he was rolling around and fine.  Then 20 minutes later, he started freaking out.  I let that go on for a little while and had to take him out and walk around.  Then I tried again at 9:15 and he had the same reaction.  When I went back in at 9:30, he snuggled against me, so I knew he was relaxed.  This time when I put him down, he fell alseep almost instantly.  Like an idiot, I couldn't figure out if I should wake him at 45 minutes or let him sleep.  I did have to wake him at some point to go to an appt.  So he slept for 1 hour 20 minutes when I woke him and he was fine.

I watched him later that day and he was not fading at all.  But I tried to put him down at 2:45 and he freaked. I tried again at 3:30 and I got the same reaction.  This time he wouldn't calm down unless I held him.  He has been biting down on everything and super clingy, so I know the teeth are bothering him.  But he still won't sleep.

I ended up giving him a bottle at 4:30, so we could have him down by 5.  But he has been screaming ever since and it is 5:30.  DH said that he is wide awake and doesn't look tired and brought him out of his room because he won't settle.  I keep telling DH that he is OT at this point, but he does not think so.  So we are now on a 6.5 hour A time and my LO is still awake.  I am in so much trouble tonight.


Am I crazy if I try and push the 1st nap back and try and get a longer nap then?   My LO just likes a long A in the morning. 

[LizzieN]

No sweetie you are not crazy at all.  In the mornings these days I usually go for a 4-5 hour A time (depending on how he is and how the night was, we've been having rough ones) and trying for a decent nap towards the middle of the day.....(bear in mind lots of mums say it takes a while for this nap to extend)...rarely I"ve had him go down for 2 hours at this point (but usually it's limited 'cause he refluxes and it wakes him up or he does a poo or somthing)....if it's a good nap (say 1.5 hours +) that's pretty much it for the day, bed time is then about 7pm which is probably a bit long but our LO has issues going down earlier....

our day looks a bit like this:

wake: 6:30am
Sleep: 11:15am ish
Wake: 1:00pm ish
Sleep: ~7pm

If we go out in the car in the afernoon he will often have a little cat nap.

If the first sleep needs to be earlier, or he doesn't go over an hour I revert back to our old routine and do two naps, so our day looks more like this:

Wake 6:30am (this varies btw depending on the LO)
Sleep 10:30am
Wake 11:30am (this happens a lot esp at the moment)
Sleep (try) 3pm ish
Wake ~ 4:15pm (if he will sleep for long, I don't let him sleep past this 'cause it affects bed time)
Bed time: ~ 7:30pm

If your LO likes a long A time in the morning, I would definately push that nap back as late as you think he will handle and then try for  a little cat nap in the pm if he seems tired (the car or a pram ride if he will sleep out and about )...sounds like you are definitely on the 2 to 1....sad isn't it 'cause things just start working (we had JUST started getting a pm nap without a major scream fest) and then the 2 to 1 starts...

Ah well, gotta keep us on our toes somehow xx

Good luck sweetie HTH
Lizzie

[lilac83]

Some moms do have success with the longer AM nap, like what Lizzie posted. However, a lot of the time the LO will refuse the PM catnap, just like your DS did today. You can give it a few more days to see how things pan out and then reevaluate. If you can't get him down before 4hrs in the AM you can do something like this as well:

5:30 - wake (I know you probably want a later wake I'm just using this time since this is when he woke today)
9:30 - nap for 30min
10:00 - wake
1:30 - nap for however long
3/3:30 - wake (just guessing this would be his wake up time)
7:30 - bedtime

He may actually be further along in the switch than we think and only need the 30min AM nap. If you want to do long AM though, that's perfectly fine too!

[mmom]

OK, I will try what you outlined today.  And yes, I would like a later wake up.  But my LO doesn't agree.