Author Topic: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?  (Read 1657 times)

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Offline thedavies

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support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« on: July 06, 2009, 21:20:10 pm »
....does one exist? would anyone be interested? we've probably had less than 6 months worth of unbroken nights in the last 3 and a half years...(and some of them were because of a prolapsed disc meant DH sleeping on a hard futon in DDs room..). To say we're a little weary over here and could do with hearing from others whose children just seem to have been like this from birth, would be an understatement. Currently we're on a consistent 8-weeks-with only 2 solid nights cycle just now...if it goes how it always has done in the past, this will probably come to an end for about six weeks and we'll get some solid nights in...but before too long we'll be right back to it.
anyone want to share? after 3 and half years, i've found that the more normal patterns of sleep disruption most people seem to experience mean that it can be understandably hard to relate to what this sleep-dep since birth can be like..so we feel pretty much a lack of support anywhere...
love to hear from others in a similar jam

Offline Micky01

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 03:22:51 am »
uhhhgghhh.  DS is 14 months and has NEVER slept through.  One or two nights with only one wake, but most often 4 to 5.  He was MSPI w/reflux until 7 months, so we tried to keep AP to a minimum, but did what we had to do to get sleep and keep him comfortable.  We have spent months sleeping by his crib, doing gradual withdrawal, and now currently using wi/wo with some success.  Things have gotten better.  NW's don't last as long as they used to, but the disruption of sleep is taking its toll.  I'm feeling deflated, eternally exhausted, and I look 10 years older than I did a year ago. His older sister was sleeping through at 11 months, so I always figured he would start to get it.  Starting to wonder now. Thanks for beginning  the thread.  Its nice to know we are not alone.  :-\

Offline rinajack

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 03:47:14 am »
My 3.25 yr old doesn't sleep through most nights, and neither does my almost 2 yr old DS. Fortunately for us, we dont' mind cosleeping, so when they wake, they come into our room - there is no crying involved.

DD usually puts herself onto a mattress beside our bed, but lately since it is cold, she comes into bed.

DS usually comes into bed, but he is prone to taking a LONG time to go back to sleep if something is wrong.  For ages, it was his reflux that kept him awake (he still has it at almost 2).  Then it was a tummy ache - food intolerances - he is now dairy and wheat free - in fact they both have these intolerances.  Now, he is teething 2 yr old molars, and it can take a while for the nurofen to have the desired effect.  He is sleeping a bit better, and going back to sleep a bit easier since he dropped the nap though.

So, I never sleep through, and both kids don't nap.  AND I have to constantly read labels, and make my own versions of things due to the intolerances - it is honestly exhausting and very very time consuming!

Did I mention that they are also both spirited????? :P
Rina - Mum to Zara 29/3/06
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Offline Rebecca247

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 04:02:00 am »
hey everyone, having 2 perfect sleepers who both slept thru from 4-6 weeks of age, baby #3 was a total eye opener for me, and yep thats kind of literally speaking aswell......

Max is 18 months soon and has NEVER STTN! I'm extremely exhausted and often teary alot of the time! I'm always grumpy (just ask DH) who could sleep thru a freight train going thru our bedroom and never hears Max when he wakes anyway! I can be up 4-5 times a night and then he is a pretty early riser aswell and if he does decide to sleep in like he did this morning, i had to be up to get the older kiddies ready for school as DH was at work today.......So i think this is a great thread so we all know we are not alone and can be there for each other.
My hardest decision came last night that we are cutting back night time bottles, he is 18 months on saturday and doesnt need them, i dont mind giving him one but NO more then that! He has always been on the small side and not a great eater so that is why we gave in and kept his night time bottles!

So we will be in for some rough nights i think, but hey we have had 18months of them a few more wont hurt...But then again no matter what you try some kids just arent great sleepers and need extra help! I was lucky enough to have not known about kids not sleeping until Maxi came along! :)

So I'm getting a good dose now!
Stay strong everyone, it wont be forever, when they are teenagers we'll be posting again and asking how to get them out of bed! :)

Bek
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Bek

they have my heart, they are my everything xxxx

Offline thedavies

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 19:16:03 pm »
Aha!!! I love this website! I am thrilled to hear from you all, though sad there are probably so many of us..I've picked up the following things in common from your posts:
reflux - DD had this from birth to solids, just before 6 months.
tummy aches - DD frequently has these - haven't considered food intolerances, to be honest..what were the other symptoms, if any, rinajack?
spirited - ooh how spirited. and touchy..
endless cycles of GW/WIWO...it does work for us..but never long-term so we too have spent more hours of our lives cot/bed side..
the exhaustion that is like no other from long-term sleep deprivation...i have been doing some research and the results are not
very comforting (and the sites all tell you to just get more sleep)...who else never seems to be able to drop any weight whatever you do?? yep, sleep dep disrupts the hormonal cycle that relates to weight gain..and many other things
isolation - having been back and forth to receive help from this site so many times, i have finally realised that poor-sleep-since-birth may be a different 'category' and i have found it so hard, after BW'ing since 3.5 months to have some parents (not on this site i hasten to add, but in my parenting community) show that they think you're not trying/not being effective/over-dramatising, just basically not being able to comprehend what long-term sleep problems are like. (I have only met one other parent in all this time who said her two girls didn't sleep from birth so she was sleep dep'd for 4 years)
so, i'm wondering could we share vents/moans/positives/tips beyond the usual sleep techniques (whilst sharing on those as well of course)  - maybe those who have tried herbal/homeopathic/holistic remedies or like rinajack if food tolerances are problematic..did anybody try cranial osteopathy for example?
we've found clary sage essential oil is useful - it apparently balances out the hormonal disruption caused by sleep dep - it works for both DD and us, on those days when we are near breaking point with it all, it really helps
chammomile essential oil - soothing and naturally sedative
rescue remedy nightime - available in the UK, don't know about anywhere else
aspen bach flower remedy - for nightmares
One big factor for us here is nightmares/night terrors - we have big phases where it is obvious that she is genuinely scared...and other times where she is more afraid of being afraid (if you understand me) - how about anyone else?
and holidays? ha! every holiday we've ever had, we feel like we need another one straight away to recover! and it takes a couple of months often to balance out the disruption...
And, Rebecca247, I'm heartened to hear your story because our DD is our first and only so far (and that's no coincidence, we've been actually unable to face the possibility of going through this again!) and we've had times where we've just resigned ourselves to the fact that it's all just down to us, that we have failed to teach sleep effectively. but hearing from someone who has children who have a more regular sleep pattern and one who doesn't lends weight to my laywoman's theory that whilst parenting styles obviously play a big part, there are some children who just...don't...sleep, or struggle to sleep well, at least.
here are some positives
with our DD we have found the following key things
*consistency consistency consistency - we joke that she is like a fancy engine or a race-horse. very finely tuned..though just with the ups and downs of daily life this can be really hard to maintain
*routine - like clockwork
*if she is in a phase where she is able to go to sleep with us out of the room, she is less likely to wake in the night and re-settle without needing us
*a mixture of reassurance when needed (keeping the trust) combined with not nurturing the fear (a ROCRO type approach - validate feelings but still help to move on)
*bedtime snacks (porridge, bananas) really helped us with the awful awful EW's (we saw 5am so often for so long..so bad)
*pragmatic use of co-sleeping in certain desperate situations, tho she is a real wriggler and we virtually never get much sleep ourselves if we do this, so this is not always a surefire winner...
sorry, this post is probably way too long, i'm just so thrilled to hear from you all..so if anyone would like to , lets keep it going a bit
xxxxxxxx



Offline rinajack

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2009, 03:29:06 am »
re food intolerances - we didn't identify DD's until she was old enough to tell us her tummy hurt - combined with her total lack of appetite (we were down to about 5 mouthfuls of food per 24 hours), poor sleep, frequent tantrums, inability to concentrate, and then she fell through the charts.  Took a while though to work out which foods to eliminate, and we may not be done with that yet - next paed appt is in 2 weeks.  DS - very very very poor behaviour - frequency and intensity of tantrums was off the chart for his age, poor sleep, and then he also fell through the charts, so we just did to him what we had already worked out for DD, and saw improvement quite quickly.

Things that work for me - cosleeping does.  My kids can go to bed on their own, now they just come in in the night.  For kids who are too wriggly - dd was like this, but after a few weeks of cosleeping, it got much better, she got used to sleeping with other people. 

DD is also prone to nightmares - if they can tell you what the dreams are about, you can address the topic directly.  We had an issue with bears, and we did crafts about funny bears who like to put pom poms on their noses to be clowns and the like, that really helped.

DD had severe SA - the cosleeping helped resolve that more than anything else we tried.

My kids are irregular, so following their lead instead of having a strict routine works better for us, that one comes down to personality I think.

Lots of outdoor time and physical exercise really really helps - we do the park every single day in cooler weather as well as outdoor time at home, and we swim either in a wading pool at home or at the local pool pretty much every single day in summer.

Re other parents - my most successful tip is not to talk about it to most people, only to the few you have found who dont' judge you.

For my own sleep/energy - exercise is critical.  And accepting that this is the way it is, instead of trying to constantly improve it, helps with my attitude and my ability to cope with it iykwim.
Rina - Mum to Zara 29/3/06
                     Hugh 26/8/07
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Offline Rebecca247

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2009, 04:11:44 am »
TheDavies (sorry i dont know your name) imagine my disappointment in myself as a mother having 2 great sleepers, my first was born when i was only 19 and i think i did pretty darn well being young and having a great sleeper first time around, thats probably why his sister arrived 19 months after he was born, and I thought the first was a great sleeper, she was PERFECT! I couldnt believe my luck..... We waited 4 years after DD and Max was born when i was 26 and he is a total shocker so i am thinking that i am useless, i could do it with the other kids why cant i do it now, but instead of stressing myself out over sleep issues i have resorted to the fact that he isnt a good sleeper and its nothing to do with me as a motherm I've done the best i can and am still trying the best i can, but i am just doing what works for me and my little family, I dont want continuous nights of GW/WIWO we have been doing this FOREVER it feels and it really disturbs my older kids who have to function at school and my husband has to function 12 hour days at a hard job, so i'm doing what works, probably not really BW ideas all the time, but they are only little once, you have to treasure those years, even though sleep deprivation is hard to get thru i just thank my lucky stars that i have 3 happy, healthy gorgeous kiddies that I would give the earth for, and 2 out of 3 good sleepers arent bad! But when Max does wake in the morning and says "cuddle mummy" those frustrations of the night before go right away! So chin up ladies, we are all here for each other and we can swap and change stories and hints and tips knowing we are all going to be up together again tonight! :)
I am interested in the herbal remedies though, thats something we have never looked into!

Bek
xxxx



Bek

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Offline verytired

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2009, 04:41:46 am »
I just came out of a 3 hour gradual withdrawal session with DS so can I please join in this moan?

DS has never slept well - I have many threads on here where I have posted about our various attempts to get DS to sleep on his own/STTN - all attempts were spectacular failures!

He is better at STTN now - may be 5 nights each week. But it still takes him anywhere from 1 to 3 hours to fall asleep and since we started gradual withdrawal about 1 month ago I have been getting more and more frustrated.

I was crying for the last 30 min of tonights session.

Anyway I have a bunch of clean up to do so I will be back latter to vent somemore

(misery loves company :-)  )

Offline thedavies

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2009, 13:46:09 pm »
verytired - welcome! You don't say how old your DS is but I remember doing similar long GW sessions with our DD - for us, although we do go through continuous cycles of sleep troub, GW gets quicker and quicker each time we do - its taken 3 nights this time round, whereas it used to take weeks, even months! so for us, it was worth persevering though so frustrating at times as now DD is 3 1/2 we're able to talk with her about GW and it seems to give her the reassurance that we will be there if she needs us, but at the same time she is practicing a skill, like swimming and that takes time..i think that actually bolsters her confidence and we do definitely find she sleeps more soundly once we've made it back out of the room...come back and vent when you need!
Bek - I'm Lal! Herbal remedies - yeah, some people like them, some not..I do and use them a lot for all sorts of things. The thing I like is that if you take them per recommended doses or in conjunction with a professional therapist/homeopath/whoever, the side-effects are very minimal. I find that if its not the right remedy, it just doesn't have any noticeable effect so you can discount it after a time and you're not dealing with any further complicating side effects. If you've never tried them before, you could use them on yourself first if you're hesitant about using with your kids...although I've found we all tend to rationalise so much and the interesting thing about herbals with kids or animals is that because they don't rationalise, they have put up no psychological resistance, generally allowing the remedy to do its job more effectively. Obviously there'll be many people who will disagree about the effectiveness of such things, but even the placebo effect - does it matter if the effect is purely psychological? if it works, it works!
there are loads of good books on herbal/homeopathic remedies, and specific ones for kids, plus all the usual info online, and if you'd like to know which ones we've found useful, let me know
rinajack - am going to find out about testing for food intols, thanks for the info, our local healthfood store does offer testing...by the way, a good friend of mine with 3 children spent a long period of time of wheat/dairy/egg free with her two eldest, so i remember from her experience how utterly tedious the whole label-checking/alternative-making/eliminating process was..but ultimately so worthwhile as eventually both of them were able to gradually return to include the eliminated foods and still remain symptom-free..
interesting too to know that wrigglers eventually get the hang of co-sleeping, recurrent SA is definitely a factor for us too and that extra reassurance allows DD to bank up some sleep that helps break the OT cycle we get into..we have a lot of crying with our DD though, unless she is in a peaceful sleeping phase and I would stick with co-sleeping more readily if it meant that we all slept well as a result..but maybe it needs to be something she is allowed to get used to rather than as an emergency measure...and accepting it as it is - definitely. my resistance is on the physical/psychological side, i am prone to depression anyway and sleep dep just destroys me physically and mentally, i have precious little tolerance to it. if you needed to torture me, i would blab straight away..hmm, something to consider there...i say i'm accepting her...but on one level i'm definitely resisting it all...will wrangle with that one
not sharing with judgemental parents? definitely futile, agree..hence this thread..
anybody got any experiences to share with consulting doctors or sleep clinics or the like?


Offline lilflav

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2009, 17:44:34 pm »
Hello, while I almost fit into this category I can definately sympathize w/ you in a major way.  The biggest problem I have with the whole situation is I feel like I missed a big part of her first year & am now slipping back into that again.  There was such a long period of time when I couldn't even smile at her & could barely get out of bed (and I am revisiting those days again) & it kills me.  Everyone says "it's only temporary,it won't last forever", true but I won't get these moments back ever again.  I also feel like this is a very important learning stage for her & feel like my attitude is going to have a huge impact on her life. 

Julissa was a premie, so she did sleep well for the first few months.  Then, after a few months of worsening sleep problems, months 5-10 were all 30 min naps w/ many nws.  Everyone said "sleep when the baby sleeps" but what do you do when the baby doesn't sleep?  At that point I was not only suffering from lack of sleep, but also from never having a break.  Dh felt he had a right to go out on the weekends & his job was so much harder because it was so physical (mind you I work part time as a massage therapist), but he didn't realize that I never got a break.  He had two days off a week & nights, I was on call 24 hrs a day 7 days a week, he still doesn't get how tough it was for me.

She didn't have the physical problems that your babies do/did.  She was perfectly healthy, never sick a day in her life, didn't get teeth until 10 months.  She just is a bad sleeper.  I feel like I have spent her whole life sleep training.  We had a great schedule for about 1.5 months @ around 10/11 months, although she always did briefly get up at 6 am.  Then I messed it up by trying to wean the paci in Jan.  I kind of got her back on track about March or April(?), but we still did get a nw at ~5am that could last up to 1.5 hrs.  We had one perfect week when she slept & slept, then 4 teeth came through & I went back to ap'ing because I didn't want her to suffer through the pain.  Here we are again, now she is taking up to 2 hrs to fall asleep, up every two hrs all night, and usually has one long nw (last week we were up from 2:30-5:30).  She only has 8 teeth now, so I am worried what will happen when her molars come.  On the bright side, this is the first time in her life she has napped well.  We also never had a problem w/ ews.  Oh, and she is spirited.

I have asked many parents about their kids sleep & have gotten a wide range of answers.  I actually have spoken to many parents w/ bad sleepers.  The latest was a girl who didn't sleep well until she was 6, but still climbed into bed w/ mommy until about 6th or 7th grade.  Yesterday my neighbor actually said the people that tell me their kids do sttn are exageratting, ha ha. 

 Those are great ideas for alternative therapies, I will try some.  We do have the Bach remedies in the USA.  I always put a few drops of lavender oil in her crib.  Gtreat topic btw!  Thanks!

Offline rinajack

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2009, 22:16:25 pm »
Re the food intolerances - my understanding from the medical community here (and we have seen quite a few since we live rurally, and have to be referred to the city for some stuff - DD has had an endoscopy also, checking for coeliac disease and other issues that could have contributed) is that there is no test for food intolerances, only for food allergies.  Food intolerances don't produce an immune response in the body like an allergy does, so the body doesn't produce an instant reaction - and food intolerances can also mean that  the body won't react at all to a certain amount of a food, but will react if it has more than that.  The only way to identify them is with the use of a food diary, but with major allergens that are eaten all the time, like wheat/dairy, even that may not help.  For us it was about observing the improvement in symptoms/behaviour after eliminating the problem foods.  We are not yet 100% sure that we have identified them all tbh.



I had a terrible night with my two.  Between them I was woken at least 10 times.  My DS was the worst culprit - I have no idea if he actually slept or not, but he took long enough between groans/moans/cries/needing something that I managed to fall back asleep - I think he woke me every 20-30 mins for 3 hours last night, I am absolutely exhausted today. I got quite cranky with the pair of them this morning, DH is on night shift, so it was all me.  I rather be kept up for a few hours than repeatedly woken :P

Fortunately after being yelled at, they went back to sleep for a bit and didn't get up til 7:30, so the day may be salvaged by that little sleep in.
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                     Hugh 26/8/07
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Offline Rebecca247

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 00:19:20 am »
I did look into a sleep clinic when Max was 10 months old but it was so hard to get into, we had to get different referrals from a GP and then a HV needed to come and monitor us at home and if all that went well our referrals had to go towards a meeting at the actual sleep clinic! I really couldnt go thru all that, they dont make it easy to get help in some places! A good friend of mine got in a few years ago now with her DD and all they basically did was controlled crying with her anyway, she said it was the hardest thing she has ever had to do and listen to although she said she would definately do it again if she had to. so i guess its just personal choice and what everyone feels comfortable with, I personally dont feel comfortable hearing my LO crying if i can help it.....I dont know if all sleep clinics are the same but the few i know of here in Australia do the CC approach!

I will go to our local library and look up some books on herbal remedies for kids and even look online maybe!
Thanks again.

Rina:
I had a night like yours last night aswell, Max slept reasonably well but my 2 older ones had a night where they wanted to yell out for different things almost all night...I think i got 2 hours at the most in between wakings, and then after i finished with them Max decided it was his turn, so no wonder coffee is my best friend these days!



Bek

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Offline rinajack

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 03:19:40 am »
Oh Bek, you shatter my dreams - I keep thinking that the older two will get better and better before I have another one!
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                     Hugh 26/8/07
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Offline Rebecca247

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 03:57:55 am »
Oh sorry Rina, the older ones dont get up to often but when Max seems to be having worse nights then usual (if thats possible) it does seem to make me MORE tired!
I'm just glad that Max has great day sleeps otherwise i'd be a wreck, I can get so much done while he's napping, he is such a mummies boy aswell and loves clinging to my leg and following me around, so to have both my legs for jobs is amazing! :) I'm actually thinking if seeing my MIL and asking her if she would look after Max for one morning a fortnight just to get him used to being with someone else, he is with me 99.9% of the time and he becomes heartbroken if i leave him at all, even when he goes for a drive with my DH he wants me! He's 18 months now, time for me to let him go a little i think, break myself from him aswell, i just feel when he is not with me (not that often) i have lost an arm or something, i feel so lost....I know this isnt on the subject of this topic sorry i'm rambling but needed to let it out!
thanks everyone
Bek
xxxx



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Offline rinajack

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Re: support thread/post for poor-sleepers-since-birth...?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 05:19:18 am »
Bek, it was about that age that I started leaving DS with his dad more and it has really helped me have a break, and DH to bond with DS.  I don't leave them long generally, just to go for a run most of the time, then the odd hair dresser appt or the like.  I recently managed to go away for the entire weekend, DS was very very upset iwth me when I returned, but he was fine with DH while I was actually gone.

Maybe you need to start small, and with your DH before anyone else? And I think it makes a different if YOU leave HIM - so they need to be home and YOU need to go out.
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                     Hugh 26/8/07
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