Can someone plse help me drop the catnap

[*Jo*]

well the rest of the day got better after that,

He slept for 50 mins, woke up crying hard, i went in and he looked like he was still sleepy, i patted his little head and his eyes were rolling around so i stuck the dummy back in and he slept for another 30mins! went to a friends house and he played happily for 3 hours, he even went to sleep for a catnap at their house in the portacot really easily (last time we tried this at their house he screamed the house down as he is only really used to sleeping at home, we never have him sleep at other peoples houses) then we were invited for dinner so i got him up at 6.15pm (late i know but i figured he needed it, it was only a 25min catnap) gave him a bath at their house, he played quite happily on the floor with the toys while we ate dinner and then we gave him his bottle and put him to bed at 7.45pm in the portacot while we watched a movie, he went to sleep without a sound!!! then at 10pm we had to leave and i thought "this is gonna be interesting" got him up, put him in the car (he looked shocked and was shaking a bit, i think it was all a bit much for him) got him home, put him straight into bed and we havent heard a peep from him! lets hope the rest of the night goes as smoothly.

Mashi thanks for the info on the CN, i will definately try gradually cutting out the CN, i think all at once is a bit much for him, he is an Angel baby but he definatley has touchy flavourings esp with sleep. I guess i just get so upset because I see my baby boy upset and I hate seeing him like that.
He is doing alot of developmental stuff, little push ups, rolling, pulling himself up,just started saying Mamma and Dadda, hes so close to crawling, when he sits up and leans forward to grab toys he gets so close to getting on all fours but then he just faceplants the floor! hahaha, its so cute, he can scoot on his bum when hes sitting too. But when hes in bed we have a Safe-T-Sleep which velcro's him into the bed so he isnt able to do anything, he cant get up or anything like that, he cant roll over onto his tummy (cos when he does that we have a screaming baby, he hates sleeping on his tummy, he sees it as play time) and he gets HEAPS of daytime practise of all these things, im very involved with him during the day, making sure he gets all he needs. He very contently can play by himself for about half an hour while im in another room (where i can still see him of course) say preparing dinner in teh kitchen and hes on the floor in teh dining area etc.
and i tell ya, those darn sleep cues are near impossible, i swear they jsut dont exist anymore until 3 seconds before the sleep window closes! He literally went from happy happy bum shuffling on teh floor in his room with me to a crying mess within seconds today. *sigh* im tired, its been a long day and i am off to bed. we are out all day tomorrow so there will be little to no point trying the day without a CN

[*Jo*]

we have been awake since 4.45am..... I think that says it all

[Mashi]

Are you sure that when he woke at 445 that he was really up for the day and not just "woken" and needed resettling?   If he does seem to be up for the day, I would really think that it is from OT rather than anything else.  OT wake ups are commonly at 5am -- or about 10 hours after he went to sleep. 

[*Jo*]

we left him alone and he cried on and off every 5-10 mins until about 5.30 and i did a bit of resettling then he slept for 20mins and woke up crying again, we tried resettling and PU/PD he screamed until we got him up at 6.30am.

of course I didnt get any sleep during that time so i was shattered. He went to sleep at 8.30am and slept until i had to wake him to go out at 10am, he had a 20min sleep in the car at 1.20pm and then refused to sleep when we got home, he had another nap at 3.10pm until 4.40 (which is when DH and I also slept) and he was quite happy. Bedtime was 7.30pm

If he does wake up at say 5am how do i work the day out from there? do i give him extra sleep during the day or do i put him to bed 12 hours later at 5pm? he most certainly wont sleep any longer than 12 hours if i do that and we will just end up with another 5am wakeup.

[Tweakster]

This is not giving me much hope :-(  Sorry calebsmummy - this is stuff that no one tells you about...it must be developmental because every kid trying to drop the CN is going through the same thing.

We had a lovely 4:30 wake up call...even though he had CN yesterday!!...I finally went in at 5:30 after he continued to murmur and mantra and generally fuss (no full on crying though) and was only able to soothe him down by 6:19...he slept until 7 and then I just got him up for the day. 

I need to know about the extra sleep too...just want to tag along in the thread for a bit...hope that's ok :-)

[Mashi]

Well, I'm not sure what you are "supposed" to do, but can share what it was that **I** did!    I found that if I left him alone to try to resettle at that time, it was pointless.  I lied in bed being disturbed by him, DH was up the wall because he had to get up for work at 630 and needed that last hour, and it wasn't doing DS any good either. 

So, when he woke at 445, 500, etc, I jumped out of bed and flew to his room as fast as possible. Tried shhh/pat, calmed him, and generally did ANYTHING I had to do to get him back to sleep. Rocking if needed - and I never found that rocking him at these EWs interfered with his ability to go to sleep on his own at nap and bedtimes.  Some times when I was too tired to do any of this, I would pick him up out of bed, yank his mattress out of his cot and toss it on the floor.  Curl up on the floor next to his mattress (we kept a spare duvet in his room for me to lie on and pillows and blankets just for this purpose) and try cuddling with him a bit doing shhh/pat on his tummy.  Often he would take an hour to settle back to sleep, but he would eventually go.  And then get him up at our regular wake up time - usually about 630 for him, but if he didn't get back to sleep until say, 615, then I would let him sleep until 7am and then wake him and go about the day.

I just found that if he was OT and waking early, there was little to no chance that he would be able to settle himself - waking up OT meant that he really needed me to get him back to sleep and if I didn't get in to his room with a sense of urgency then he would start getting giddy and worked up and there was NO chance!

[*Jo*]

All4Finn - it doesnt give me much hope and im going through it!!

mashi-all those things would make Caleb wake up more, he is very easily distracted, he cant have anything in his cot or he will not fall asleep, we have to have a sleep sack with the hands covered over or he wont fall asleep as his hands keep him awake.

well he woke up at 4.40am this morning, i went in and put my hand on his chest until he calmed down, he fell back asleep, woke up at 5.10am and cried a little, fell back asleep, woke up at 5.45, cried a little and went back to sleep, woke up at 6.10am and would not go back to sleep. I actually got upset at him and had to leave his room.

Perhaps i should post on the night wakings board???

[~*Nicole*~]

With CNs you're sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you keep them you get EWs (from getting too much daytime sleep usually) If you lose them you get EWs (from OT during the transition usually) I wish I had more helpful information for you guys. It's a hard time.

[*Jo*]

great so how long does this process usually take? I know each child is different but generally I mean, just so i know how long this is gonna go on for.

I did something slightly different today, i took him into his bedroom about 10 mins earlier than i usually do for wind down, i put him in his bed at 2 hours 30mins A time and he went to sleep roughly around 10-13 mins later so a total of 2 hours 45 mins A time. its been nearly an hour now, lets hope he will sleep longer. If he wakes up I dont bother trying to extend if its been past an hour of sleep for him, it just stresses me and him out and then i end up not enjoying my time with him.

[*Jo*]

Im trying really hard not to cry right now. This morning he had a good long sleep, an hour and 45mins, he then had a 2 hour 55min A time but then he only slept 45mins! I tried PU/PD for 30mins and I really wanted to throw that screaming child out the window! He was crying so hard that I couldnt even hear my own voice telling him that it was only sleep time etc. I finally stopped and opened his bedroom door, put him on the floor and hes as happy as larry! so yes there will be a catnap once again today! because i have no choice. hes been up since 2.10pm. I have a huge lump in my throat because im trying really really really hard not to let this get the better of me.

right now, i hate this.

[Mashi]

We went through those days. Days when I was trying to put him back to sleep after 45 minutes and DS was crying so hard that I would be frantically texting my husband while rocking DS, telling him that there was something seriously wrong with him and that I think we needed to go to the hospital....no child screams like that unless he's REALLY ill.  Crying so hard that he was choking himself. Me rocking, shhing, sobbing, and so on. Then I would get angry....JUST GO TO SLEEP - you're crying because you're TIRED!  And so on.....

Then, I would give up, carry DS out of the room and he was magically cured of the strange and horrible illness that I was convinced he had a moment ago ... because it turns out that the illness was Notsleepyitis. 

I think it is normal.  At this age, A times are increasing, daytime sleep needs are decreasing but he is still USED to having the catnap and 3 sleeps a day, so he just needs to get used to not having it. With increasing A times, some days he can handle it, others he can't.  I really do remember those days soooooooo well, and offer you gazillions of hugs to get through it.

I do remember that at about 7 months we started getting good morning naps - from a child who had never napped longer than 4 5minutes in his short life - but afternoon naps were still crap. It was a hard time, I felt like I was getting somewhere but at the same time still felt so defeated.  I think one of the things that worked for me was not increasing the A time before the afternoon nap, but making it more full of activity.  Lots of time bouncing in his doorway jumper, lots of time practicing rolling, trying to encourage crawling....anything I could do that could physically tire him out and make him really need the rest.  Some days it worked, other days it only meant that I needed a nap and for some reason, he still didn't.....

[*Jo*]

Oh your post gave me some hope that Im not the worst mother in teh world that just simply cant understand her child from one min to the next!!

I tell ya i was so tired i lay on teh couch after getting him up and fell asleep for 10 whole mins by accident, i woke up with a fright and felt so guilty, but he was still happily sitting on the floor playing with the photo album i made him. he can only handle 2 hours A time after a 30-45 min nap so i put him down after that at 4.10pm and let him sleep till 5, then i got him up and gave him his bath etc, after only being up an hour he was rubbing his eyes and shaking his head he was so tired, so i decided to do the bedtime routine and put him to bed, he was in his cot at 6.15pm, 12 hours after he had woken up this morning. Lets hope i beat the OT and didnt create another early wake up call.

Perhaps i shouldnt do Pu/Pd, it was just awful, i dont like feeling like that towards him, I really kept thinking "oh perhaps its teeth, maybe hes getting sick, maybe hes had an allergy to some of his food and his tummy is upset, perhaps his reflux has flared up" but of course i cant see in teh dark if its any of those things! part of me just wanted to jump into the cot with him and cuddle him but i know that wont help him.

A few questions if i am going to do Pu/Pd:
*at this age you are supposed to do the cradle hold and put down straight away right? he HATES the cradle hold, i think its what sent him into worse of a screaming flurry, should i just put him over my shoulder, that does seem to calm him down sometimes.

*do i pick up and put straight down or wait a few seconds, otherwise it feels like im just picking up and putting down a screaming baby constantly?

*i put my arms out to him to wait for him to reach out to me but hes crying so hard that his eyes are shut and he cant see me reaching out for him so i just pick him up anyway. is this ok?

*at what time in the morning should i just not even attempt it if he wakes early?

*should i be asking these questions in the Pu/Pd board? i dont want to have to re explain my situation again though.

I know, alot of questions!!!
ugh, i need to go to bed!

[Tweakster]

Hey there, just wanted to throw in some hugs too and say that this is such a transitional time for these LO's - it seems the whole first 12 months is full of them.  You get one thing licked and then another issue crops up, they are getting more mature and independent and the world is their oyster.  It's all so hard - I agree.  Finn is a hard nut to crack and each day I feel less and less confident that I know what I am doing.  It's like a roller coaster.  But we plunge ahead...because have to.

I posted on PU/PD the other day, similar issue.  I can't continually PU/PD Finn because he is heavy, almost 18 pounds, lugging him in and out of the crib just makes both of us upset.  So I stick with the shush/pat or in reality at this point it is more like just quietly shushing and holding my hand on his back.  If it upsets him too much I just move away and shush from a distance, but he still knows I am there.  At times I think the shushing is more like a distraction for me.  They assured me that it is not abandoning him even though sometimes it feels like it.  He can sleep independently, I know he can, and so with that knowledge I just stay there to encourage him from afar.  It's not CIO and even though yes he is crying, he knows I am there.  Whilst it is hard to listen to crying of any kind, I just keep repeating in my head - 'he knows how to do this, I know he can do it, he's fine, he's just tired'.  I was doing the rocking thing as mashi was, feeling almost 'sorry' for him but alas as the book says, don't feel sorry for your baby, you are creating and nurturing great sleep habits that will benefit him greatly for his whole life. 

If reflux is flaring and PU/PD makes it worse, I would avoid it.  Use another method that makes you feel comfortable enough to say 'I'm still helping him learn to sleep independently' - whatever that may be.  When they are crying and that little flap is open if you pick them up and down again it might slosh them around more.  I think reflux babies are sensitive to PU/PD.

You are doing so great!  And you are doing everything you can.  When he short naps due to UT, get him up and enjoy him like you did.  You knew how much A time he could take afterwards and adjusted accordingly.  He's tired early?...put him to bed...like you did.  No amount of tweaking or analyzing routines is going to account for individual human behaviour. It's the one variable out of our control. 

I think if you read all your own posts over as if you were a newbie mom who didn't even know about BW, you would see how much you really do know about your boy.  And how hard you are working to keep him healthy and happy. 

[Mashi]

As far as PUPD goes, we never used it as it's just not for me...I was more of a gradual withdrawl/gentle removal type.

So, that said, I also think that PUPD isn't to be used as a one-off thing now and again when LO wakes early. It could be my misunderstanding, but I have always understood PUPD to be something that you use when you are breaking a prop or teaching LO to sleep independently.  As in, when you've always rocked him to sleep and now you want to start putting him to sleep without rocking him. Or, when he wakes at 45 minutes because he can't transition sleep cycles because he doesn't know how to fall asleep independently.  I don't think it would be effective as a way to get him to sleep just on days or times when he doesn't want to have a nap, iykwim?

I would try to settle him in the same way that you put him to sleep in the first place - if you do shhpat, then do that. If you do some other method to get him to sleep, then do that. Keep at it for 10ish minutes, and if he's not going to settle, then just accept it and get him up. Often I would just lie on the floor next to his cot and he would coo and play with his fingers and talk to his lovey, and I considered that "restful" time for both of us...when he started screeching to get up or getting upset, I would get us both up.   You are doing well with correcting the A times after the short nap, and that's great that you had him into bed 12 hours from when he woke.  Fingers are crossed for a good 12 hour sleep tonight and keep at it with the 12 hour days, it will def help to beat the OT monster creeping in.

[*Jo*]

Ok, then im not gonna do Pu/Pd cos hes not dependant on anything and he knows how to transition etc what i do to put him to sleep is we just say goodnight to all the animal pictures on his wall and I stand by his cot with him, cuddle him and sway a little for about two or three mins and when he starts showing me hes ready to go to sleep then i put him into his bed. I just thought that if i do the same thing then he will be relying on me to pick him up and cuddle him, its effectively very similar to Pu/Pd but its not at the same time if you know what i mean.

right well last night we had a 2.50am wake up where i did do Pu/Pd, but not heaps, i only picked him up twice to tell him that it was sleep time, he eventually calmed down in his cot with my hand on his chest and was back to sleep again at 3.10am. He woke up at 5.45am and cried really hard for 10 seconds, by the time i even got to the door he was quiet again and asleep. then he woke up at 6.45am and we got him up at 6.55am so i think thats a huge improvement for a start to the day. His cheeks are really bright red, they have been for about 4-5 days so perhaps its not teething, i cant see anything or feel anything, what else could it be??

and All4Finn - thanks,  you are right, i do know my boy quite well and I do know more than I think i do thank you for reminding of that