Author Topic: 12 MO EW  (Read 1418 times)

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Offline sandie01

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12 MO EW
« on: August 17, 2009, 23:14:17 pm »
Hello - First Post Ever!
Firstly thank you to everyone who has ever posted and especially to those who respond. My DS is just on 12MO and almost two weeks ago he was unwell and that is where our EW started. His wake time prior was at about 6:30am and this was fine by me - now we wake at 4:30am have a short cry and go back to sleep (without me going in) then wakes again at 5:15am and goes up and down from crying etc to playing and is just exhausted by his normal feed time at 6:45. Here is our routine prior to the EW start;
6:30am wake up
6:45 -  Milk (a prescription formua as he is allergic to dairy protein)
7:30 Solids  - B/fast
8:00 - Nap 1 1/2 hours
9:30 - Activity
10:30-45  Milk
11:30 - Lunch  -SOlids
12:00 Nap 1-2hrs
2:00- Aft snack
2:45 -Milk
4:30ish nap 20-40min
5:30 Dinner - Solids
6:10 Bath
6:40 Milk - sometimes has all 180ml other times doesnt have any
7:00 Bed
He sleeps all night long and has for over six months. If he wakes he can generally get himself back to sleep and I can tell by the type of cry if I need to go in or not.
I got confused last week about what technique to use so I have been inconsistent and I am sure this is why we are still saying Hi to each other at 5:30am each morning. Just this morning I started using PU PD - he is heavy and I read that PD may be better. Can you assist?

Thank you

Offline becky1969

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 00:50:49 am »
It's hard to say if the change has to do with the illness, or is just a developmental change.  12 months a lot of things happen, including learning to walk etc.

The first thing I note is that he's getting about 3-4.5 hours of daytime sleep.  This may be too much, giving you short nights.  What I'd probably do to start is get rid of that cat nap and then move bedtime a little earlier.  I know you're probably worried about having even EARLIER wake-ups, but I have a feeling that he's robbing nighttime sleep for daytime.  At 12 months, we usually see only 2.5 hours of daytime sleep (1 hour nap, 1.5 hour nap) and 11.5 hours at night.  He should be able to handle 4-4.5 hours of A time.

I think nap #1 can be pushed later.  Even with a 5:15 waking, he's only doing 2h45 minutes of A time.  So, let's slowly push that out until it's closer to 4 hours.  This first nap we can push to a pretty long A time because even if he's OT we only want an hour nap out of him, so it should work out.  I'd probably move by 15 minutes every day or two, depending on how he handles it.  If he seems to  be doing great you can increase faster.

Then Nap #2 should be about 3.5-4 hours after he wakes from nap #1.  Right now you only have 2.5 hours between naps.  Let's stretch that.  Then that will push bedtime later than you have it now (even with a catnap) and should then help you to get a later wake-up.


Right now you're letting your child have A times that are more commensurate with a child of about 6 months old!  He must be a WONDERFUL sleeper to go along with that!  ;D  The problem, as you're finding out, is that he's going to start robbing his nights to account for alllll that daytime sleep.  Plus, it will make it REALLY hard to move to 1 nap as he's not even up to 3 hours A time and we need to see closer to 5 hours A time before 1 nap will work.  I know it seems like this routine is fine since his naps are so nice and long, but like I said it's going to backfire -- and already is, as you see with your EW problem.

Let's pretend a 5:15 waking to start with.  Go ahead and get him up so as not to complicate matters.  In 2-3 days, I think that wake up should be back in the 6:15-6:30 range without too much effort.  Here's what we'll start with, in terms of routine:

5:15 awake

8:30 Nap #1 (hoping for 1 hour or more)

10:00 waking

1:00 nap (hoping for around 1.5 hours.  If he sleeps 2 hours that's OK for now; we may limit if EWs remain a problem)

2:30 awake

6:00 bedtime -- I realize this may be a stretch, but this will slowly get better over the next few days.

Step #2

Have him do 3h15 A time before each nap.  No more than 4 hours of A time before bed, but bedtime should also be no earlier than 6.

Step #3:  Have him do 3h30 A time before each nap.  No more than 4 hours of A time before bed.  Hopefully bedtime is closer to 6:30 or 7.

Step #4.  Have him do 3h45 A time before each nap and before bed.

Step #5.  Have him do 4h A time before each nap and bed.


The # of days you stay at each step depends on how your child is doing. If naps become 45 minutes or shorter it means we need to stay at the new A time for 3 days or so before changing again.  If naps remain 1.5-2 hours long, go ahead and lengthen A time again by 15 minutes the next day, as illustrated above.  Bedtime may be stretch for the first couple of days but after that things should get better as his wakings get later due to less daytime sleep.


Keep me posted and I'll walk you through the changes! Just so you know, LOTS of moms of textbook/angel kids get in this same situation as you.  Textbooks especially show sleepy signs at roughly the same time every day, even if they are ready to stretch.  At first it works OK, but eventually it starts to backfire.






Owen, 12/28/05 7 lb 2 oz

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Offline sandie01

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 02:56:15 am »
Thanks. It sounds great. My next dillema is when to start. Thur and Fri he is at Childcare, then on the weekend we are visitng family then we are home for two days then off to Nthrn Aust for a one week holiday. I think we are just going to have to start tomorrow morning and let them know at childcare and I wil base his bedtime on how much sleep he recieved at childcare. I will let you know how we are going. Does Tracy's Toddler book deal with some of these issues?
Cheers  :D
Sandie

Offline becky1969

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 14:20:07 pm »
Hmmm. I'd have to look at the toddler book.  Thinking about it, it would probably be in the BWSOYP book because you're essentially on a 6 month old schedule and need to increase A time.  I'm guessing she has that scenario laid out.  As I said, we see babies in this position at 12 months quite often! The good news is you have an AWESOME sleeper and probabbly a textbook/angel kid; the bad news is they are lousy at showing you when it's time to increase A time! LOL! Not a bad problem to have, tho!
Owen, 12/28/05 7 lb 2 oz

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Offline ladyinred

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 19:49:46 pm »
Hello,

What is the average A time for a 12 month old? And when does the 2to 1 nap switch take place? My other child switched at 12 months, yes it's true. She went right to sleeping for 3 hours from 1 -4pm every afternoon. Of course 3 hours shortened over time but it was great. However with DD number 2, I'm not sure. Some days her first nap is 1 hour, other days it's two hours. Her afternoon nap is always 2 hours. She's in bed by 8-8:30pm and up by 7am. Although for the past week we have had EW, but she did have 2 vacinantions at her 1 y/o check-up.
Her routine:
6:30-7am:wake,play, bottle, try sippy first(step up formula)
8am:breakfast
10am:nap(usually 2 hours)
12noon:lunch,bottle,sippy
3-3:30:nap(usually 2 hours)
5:30: play
6:00:dinner,sippy, bottle
6:30:bath,pj's
7pm:dh:playing with the girls
7:30pm:last of bottle, and then bed by 8pm

Lizzie

Offline aga01

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 02:03:24 am »
Hello, :)
I love your advices. You are great guys. .
I have 13 months old son.  He was never a good sleeper. He is a spirited baby. I started the 2-1 transition 2 days ago as my DS was refusing the afternoon nap. However he started waking at 5 pm and is only getting 9 hours of night sleep. I tried putting him down to bed earlier but he slept till 5:30 - 6 am (which was too early as well).

This is what happened over the last 3 days for 2-1 transition:
5:00 am wake-up crying (as always)
6:00 am bottle, breakfast
11:45 snack, bottle
12:00 nap - till 1:30 or 2 pm (but he wakes-up after 30-40 min. crying. I have to go to him pick him up and move him to our bed and he falls asleep again or rock him in my arms. I tried to leave him in his crib but he is crying a lot)
2 pm lunch
4 pm snack
6 pm dinner
7:30 pm bath, bottle
8 pm asleep

There is too much of activity time between his wake to nap time and nap to bedtime. He is getting really OT.

When he had two naps:
5:30 - 6 am wake-up
6:30 bottle breakfast
9 - 9:30 nap (only 30 min for a long time)
11:30 lunch
2:00 nap (usually 1 hour than I had to pick him up and rock him for a while and he fall asleep in my arms for another hour)
4 dinner
7:30 asleep in bed

He is not waking-up at night but his naps were always terrible. Over the last two weeks I have to stay in his room with him until he falls asleep. Otherwise he is screaming/crying really bad. He's been always waking-up crying if no one is in the room. I don't know if he is scared. We are thinking of moving him back to our room. I'm all confused and don't know what to do. Please help.


« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 14:33:12 pm by aga01 »

Offline becky1969

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 22:51:11 pm »
lady in red -- A time varies usually from 3.5-4.5 hours.  The 'average' age for the 2-1 transition is somewhere around 15 months.  But as you've already discovered kids can transition earlier -- some as early as 10 months! -- or later (18 months or so).  EWs suggests to me that your child is probably getting too much daytime sleep.  We like to see closer to 2.5 hours of daytime sleep at this age.  So I'd probably limit that AM nap to no more than an hour and PM nap to 2 hours max at first and see how that goes.  If you still get EWs, then limit nap#2 to 1.5 hours.

aga01: In your case, on your 2 nap days I think LO is OT! A 10 hour night is almost always an indicator of a bub that's OT at bedtime.  He's doing 4 hours of A time, but both naps are short so I'm not sure if A time is too long or too short.  The OT at bedtime may simply be because daytime sleep isn't long enough or too broken. 

What is your feeling about the nap timing? Is he showing sleepy signs at 9:00? Have you tried moving it later? With only a 30 minute nap in him, I wouldn't try 4.5 hours A time like you're doing before nap #2.  I'd definitely make nap time closer to 3.5 hours later.

To try and get a later waking in the AM, I'd probably do the following:

1) Move AM nap later.  Even if he's OT for nap #1, it's OK because we only need him to sleep for 30 minutes.  So let's try to push him until 10 and see how he does.  You may have to do that slowly in 15 minute increments over the next week or so. 

2)  Once nap is at 10 (and lasts until 10:30), I'd then only give him 3.5 hours between naps; this puts 2nd nap at 2:00 (just like it is now).  However, hopefully with better nap timing you'll get a solid 1.5 hour nap out of him. 

3) With a waking at 3:30, I'd aim for a 7 pm bedtime and see how that goes.  Worse case scenario he has a tough time falling asleep. Best case scenario you knock out the OT monster.

Hopefully this will get him to sleep closer to 11 hours at night.  Give that a try and I'll coach you along the way! However, it might be best if you post your own thread; we like to make sure that each thread has just one question. Put the link here and i'll follow up with you if necessary.
Owen, 12/28/05 7 lb 2 oz

Enjoying the toddler years!

Offline aga01

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 16:32:56 pm »
Hello becky1969. Thank you very very much for your help. I posted a new topic under
13 months baby- early waking, refuse naping, sleeps less than 10 hour at night.
I also posted your response for others to follow. Thank you

Offline ladyinred

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 01:07:32 am »
Hello

Just to keep you updated. Natalee seems to be increasing her A times. This morning she took a 2Hr nap. And this afternoon a 1Hr nap. She was in bed by 8:15pm. She was up at 7am. I think over the next month or two she may transition to one nap.

Lizzie.

Offline sandie01

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 02:24:11 am »
Hello its Sandie here again
We just got back from holidays last week - there was a 2hr time difference but we kept Alex on the same time as home. Due to travel and the heat he was a little out of sorts.
He seems to be sleeping until 5:30 and then it can go either way - two out of three mornings he goes back to sleep for a full cycle or near enough(waking 6:00 - 6:15am), the other times he ends up tossing and crying out every few minutes. We have now extended the morning Activity by 1/2 hour and I dont think its working. The morning sleep/nap over the past three days is 40min so on the weekend we will bring the Activity time back 15min and see what change there may be in at least getting one hour for the morning nap(he has childcare thur and Fri).
His afternoon sleeps over the past three days have also shortened dramatically and he doesnt seem happier for it. After 40min he is awake screaming and nothing I do can get him back to sleep, yesterday I ended up taking him for a walk (I was suprised he wouldnt go back to sleep after just 40min), he did sleep on the walk.
I know you made reference to him being potentially angel/textbook but we work pretty hard at mainting a consistent routine and following his cues, just 1/2 hour has thrown him off. I'm not sure what 'type' he is. He was born with GERD and a dairy protein intolernace so early on he just screamed constantly - I mean constantly.  With meds and dairy emilimination its calmed down. He has grown out of the GERD but not the dairy.
The first 15min was hard to judge cause we were away and heat etc played a role. We will bring him back by 15min for his morning activity and follow our normal pattern form there. I will let you know how its going on Tuesday after he has hd his A time shortened. Happy to hear your thoughts. I have done this 15min change thing before when I was moving him onto 4hourly feeds I think - it seemed to work then perhaps I just need to move reaaaaaaal slow.
Thanks
Sandie

Offline sandie01

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 21:14:26 pm »
Hi Again,
Thursday and Friday Alex went to Childcare and only had one sleep per day! Which meant that on Fri, Sat and Sunday morning he woke up at 4:30am - this is getting worse. Monday morning he slept until 5:15 and today he woke at 4:45am.
Saturday and Sunday his morning naps were 1hr 20min, afternoon naps 1.5hr and no catnap - he seems to have read your mind on this one and hasn't had a catnap for weeks - just stays awake in the cot playing, I still lay him down but I'm slowly stopping.
Standard day at the moment (the past week)
4:30am wake up
4:30-5:30 sometimes no noise for 5-10min, sometimes a nap for 10-15, general waking, noise and crying in short bursts
5:30 a few louder call outs can result in some crying. I now try to resettle and not get him up as I didn't get a change from getting him up earlier. In the past week and a bit he has never fallen back to sleep after PD, just gets upset but I am willing to keep trying as this is similar to the old PU PD reaction he gave.
6:15 up and playing
6:45 bottle
7:15 B/fast
8:20-30 sleep, yesterday only 40min
9:30 - awake
12:15 Sleep
1:30-2:00 awake, it is getting shorter as well
7:00 sleep, no problems during the night yet.
I would really appreciate your thoughts on this as I didn't expect him to wake earlier. Is  this because the catnap has gone and his daytime sleeps are shorter? I'm starting the PD cause he seems to be waking earlier, if he was back at 6:15 I wouldn't do PD but 4:30 is just ridiculous.
Thanks.

Offline becky1969

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Re: 12 MO EW
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 22:31:47 pm »
Bub is OT.  That EW is caused by being OT at bedtime.  he's probaby OT b/c nap is so short.

This is a tough one to fix at this age, but here is my usual first suggestion: do a SHORT nap roughly 4 hours after waking (so in your case 8:30  :o ).  Nap should only be about 20 min.  We're just trying to give him a 2nd wind so he can make it to a decent nap time.  Second nap time will be about 3.5 hours after first nap wake up (so about 12:30).  Hopefully that nap will be 1.5 hours or longer.  Then bedtime should be roughly 4 hours after waking from nap.  That may mean a 6 pm bedtime, but in this scenario you should be able to get a 12 hour night.
Owen, 12/28/05 7 lb 2 oz

Enjoying the toddler years!