***UPDATE***1 year old - wakes up 5-8 times a night. mom going crazy! ahhhh!

[AKMomma]

Hi all.  This is my first post here.  I heard about the Baby Whisperer from a coworker (who doesn't have sleep issues with her baby).  I'm not even sure where to start.

Any advice or info would be appreciated!

1- my son is just over 1 year old.
2- we bf
3- we basically co-sleep.  I try to put him in the crib at night and then bring him in with me & hubby when he wakes up.  Typically finishes the night with us.
4 - he has NEVER slept 'good'.
5- naps have improved as he has gotten older, usually 2 naps a day.
6- since he's been crawling and now walking his night time routine has gotten worse.  He goes to bed late, wakes up early and often and usually 'sleep crawls' in bed with us.
7- I don't like 'crying it out' - in a few moments of weakness we've tried to let him fall asleep on his own and it has never worked.  He'll go for 2 hours (with me checking in on him every 5-10 minutes) to no avail.  Finally I bring him in to bed with me.
8- he doesn't use a bottle or paci
9- my husband HATES co-sleeping - we're all miserable.
10- i think baby sleeps better on his own, but he wakes up every 30min-2 hours on his own and can't get back to sleep - it has always been like this.
11 - he does eat at night while nursing.  Sometimes its just for comfort and others its because he's hungry.  he's a picky eater and I can't seem to 'fill' him  up with solids, especially at dinner or a before bed snack.  He usually only accepts fruit, yogurt or cottage cheese.  I try many other foods but he usually doesn't eat them.  

Our typical schedule
730-830 wake
830-900 breakfast
11-12 bf & nap
1-2 up and lunch
4-5 bf and nap
6-7 up and dinner
10-midnight (yes, MIDNIGHT) - finally goes to bed
night waking: 1-2 am, 3 am, 330am, 5-6am, 7-8 up for good.  Some nights are better or worse than this.

now, I used to nurse him at night and he would fall asleep at the breast, I would then put him in his crib.  now that he's so active, he gets cranky and acts tired starting anywhere from 8-9pm, but he isn't hungry (try to nurse to sleep with no success, or give him solids which he refuses), he usually likes to play, or he just gets OT and doesn't want to do anything but be cranky.  I know he's tired.  And the few times he has slept for 6-7 hours straight he seems much happier.  But usually he's a very high-needs sensitive kid.  He's fine if I'm holding him or if I'm playing with him on the floor (which means cooking/cleaning is me wearing him in the Ergo b/c he doesn't self-soothe or play with himself well at all).

sorry for the LONG thread...

thanks for reading, and again, any help would be great.  Now that my 6 yr old is back in school, I'd like to get both on a nice routine so I can have some adult time again, and not feel like a zombie.   this lack of good sleep for over a year is wearing me out and I don't like the cranky sleep-deprived momma I've become over the past several months...

thanks all!

[yaya]

Hi there and welcome!
You are right not to let baby CIO, it's not going to get you anywhere and it's pretty mean; breaks the bond of trust between mum and tot.
However iy does sound as though you have a sleep prop issue, whereby LO needs a 'prop' in this case you, to help him get back to sleep. We all wake up continuously through the night but we know how to put ourselves back to sleep even when we are alone in the room, whereas baby need to learn this skill. Some find it easier than others.

So what I would suggest is having a read up on the sleep training methods in the FAQs and sticky in toddler sleep but I can tell you the method which I would use with an LO who is used to co sleeping is gradual withdrawal where you gradually remove the amount of 'help' you give to LO to get to sleep.

I would stop the BF as a means to get to sleep otherwise LO will keep waking for it. and personally I would put LO in his own bed (either in your room or his if he has one) To start with I would sit there with him at bedtime gently reassuring him with your words but not picking him up or nursing till he goes to sleep and repeat this process for each wakeup. It's tough at the start and does take hrs but it's so so worth it.
You might even find it's best if dad does this as LO won't look for the breast with dad and will 'let it go' quicker so to speak.

Let me know if I can be of any more help

[AKMomma]

thank you yaya!!   

I will read up on that and give it a try. 

I doubt DH will do gradual withdrawal.  He's so fed up with DS sleep issues he thinks we need to just lay him down at 'bed time' and let DS figure it out - and then ignore him during the night until he gets the idea that we're not coming for him.  I know DH is tired  (hello, so am i!  ).  But the drastic cut off from all night attention to absolutely nothing seems mean and confusing for DS.  So I have a feeling I'll be doing GW on my own.  But, I'll try it for a week and see how it goes.

Thanks again for the advise.  I'll let you know how it works out in a few days.

*crosses fingers*

[mari]

Hi AK.  Sorry for all your sleep problems.  But both myself and Michelle (yaya) have been there and really do sympathise, it's not easy.

Firstly I think that his afternoon nap might be a little late, do you think it's time to adjust, perhaps do a shorter am nap and an earlier pm nap? 

With the sleep training I would recommend GW with a view to moving to WIWO when he is more settled, although if you think that it's too soon for GW then you could try sh pat for a  little while until he gets used to falling asleep without breast or co sleeping.  It's hard for them to adjust to just dropping off to sleep if they are used to a prop of any sort.  What I did to start with was to stand right next to the cot for a few nights, shhing, then I would stand there, with no shing, then I gradually moved ever so slowly nearer and nearer to the door, it took far more than a week though, I don't think this is long enough before giving up, I'd go at least two weeks before seeing progress and even then you might see some regression.

Plese don't think I'm trying to put you off, it's not as hard as it seems, just trying to show you how long this can take, but honestly it's worth it, what you should end up with (and I have, honestly) is a baby who sleeps well and doesn't wake up looking for you to come back to help him back to sleep.

It's hard doing it alone but I did it, my DH was away working, but it's better to do it alone rather than do it and then someone else comes along and tries something different.  Consistently and perseverance are the main keys to this.  You will be doing so much for your little one though, so please give it a try.

Good luck and I hope that you stick with it and get your much deserved sleep.
xx

[AKMomma]

Hi Mari, thanks for the info and support.

I know his 2nd nap is late - I'm not quite sure what to do with that one.  He gets so tired by 5-6 pm, and thats usually when I prepare dinner. so he wakes up around 6-7 has dinner and then is up till 11 or 12am.  I think he still needs 2 naps, so I'll have to think about what to do.  I guess I'm a bit greedy with the 2nd nap because it's one of the rare moments where I can cook, clean, work, etc.  It's hard to get anything done with DS due to his high-needs personality.

I understand that it will probably take more than a week.  I did have *some* progress today.  During his first nap I laid him in his crib and stayed there with him until he fell asleep - usually I would nurse him to sleep, but this time i laid him down awake, but tired and it took about 1.5 hours for him to finally fall asleep.  He slept for about an hour, usually its for at least 2...

as for DH - he's done.  He doesn't believe in any method but CIO - I told him about GW, which is something i'm willing to try, and he said it's 'my burden'   - granted he was exhausted this morning from having DS up at 12, 3, 6, 7 and 730...

anyhoo...that was more of a venting than anything else.

thanks for listening, or rather, reading.  

[yaya]

Oh sweetheart, hugs, it's hard if you are not getting 100% support on this but I do understand DH...he sounds really tired.
You are doingg great though and we will all cheer you on here!!!! First off:
H U R R A H!!!! he went to sleep with no prop!!!!! Great news, amd far better than I expected for a first attempt if you want me to be honest (the short nap will have been down to overtired and the 1.5 hrs pushing making it nearer to wakeup time-very normal), now you know he CAN do it, you just need to persevere! Some people bring a book into the room or something and just sit in a corner and read. Personally I had many a nap on the kid's bedroom floor ;-) Just keep focusing on him going to sleep independently.

As for late nap, I get it, I was there too. You can either push that nap a tad earlier and then do a 7pm bedtime OR shorten that nap a tad as you prepare to switch to only one nap.

hang in there!

[AKMomma]

Thanks for the support! 

Yesterday went pretty well!  I talked to DH a bit more.  He was more supportive, but I think i'll be doing the night time parenting. Unless one of the kids is sick, or something, he's out for the count.  I try not to hold that against him.  He works 80+ hour work weeks outside the home, so I sort of see it as a trade off.

DS did so well!  Here's how yesterday went (Started a sleep/eat journal so I can see how we're doing):
Sat 8-22

730 up
8am - breakfast.  some oatmeal, applejuice, raisins
945am - bf, starting to doze off
10am - crib, started crying, kicking/pounding fists (not crying, just so wound up), talking, singing, then crying.  said 'shhhhh' its time for sleep in an even voice. 
1055 - fell asleep, left room
11am - woke up, kept at the 'shhhhhh' everytime he would start crying
1115 - fell asleep, left room
12:30 - awake, bf
1pm - lunch - chicken nugget, yogurt, water, grapes
3 - bf, started getting tired, but had errands to run
5pm - dinner - some spaghetti, some chicken sausage, milk - didn't eat much
5-30/6 - bath, play, bf
630 - went to lay him down, started crying but stopped when put in crib
700 - up, went in and 'shhhhh' sat next to him for ~5 min, went back to sleep
8 - up, went in 3 times, finally back to sleep
10:45 up
1115 up - 1am.  sat in his room, shhed, held is hand, wiped his nose.  he cried a bit - not much.  I finally fed him b/c I hadnt nursed in almost 6 hours - laid him down after nursing

Sun 8-23
745 - up

He seems so much happier right now after sleeping for almost 7 hours straight.  Like, I can type this right now and he's not freaking out because I'm not devoting all my attention to him.

Here's for another day of progress.

thanks again for the info and support!

[yaya]

Yay great news keep it up!

[mari]

Well done.  You are doing really well and I think it's a good idea to start a journal.  When I did this I was surprised to see how my routine wasn't as strict as I thought it was so it was easier to get a clearer picture.

For the night wakings I tried to resign my thinking that I wasn't going to sleep during the night so took really early nights myself to prepare me for being awake.  It was easy for me as my DH wasn't home so it wasn't like I had anything to stay up for.
Perhaps when your dh sees progress he will be more on board, but it's better that he stays out of the picture if you have different ideas about sleep training for now.  It will be worth it in the end if you can maintain the consistency yourself.  80+ hours is a long week so can see why he is tired.

Keep us updated on the progress, and don't let a day or two of non progress put you off, that's just your little one trying to show you who's boss!!!!!

[AKMomma]

Mari -  I hadn't realized you replied, sorry for taking a few days.

I did actually start a journal on the 22nd.  I spaced it yesterday and today...oops!  But, it was helpful for me to see that he actually eats a bigger variety of food than I thought.

The first 2 nights he woke up 2 times and I went in, sat with him and he was okay.  However, the past 2 nights I've been so tired that when he wakes up - he's freaking out (even sitting next to him for 15-20 minutes doesn't work). I try to nurse him, make sure he didn't make a mess in his diaper (he sometimes has BMs late at night) and I've brought him back to bed with us. 

The 3rd night, when I took him back to bed with us, he was gnawing on his gums, gnawing on my fingers, etc.  I had given him Tylenol a few hours before, but it never seemed to work (never has).

Feel like I'm rambling, sorry.

Okay, so the good news:  His naps and the initial lay down in the evening seem to be going well.  He's awake and I lay him down, sit next to his crib and it takes anywhere from 5-20 minutes for him to fall asleep. He might cry a bit - but typically he's talking loudly - rubbing his eyes, yawning, etc) Oh also, I've started a routine at night - which is something I never did before.  We do dinner, baths, say goodnight to everyone, turn off lights, read books, give kisses, etc.  He's also been going to bed anywhere from 630pm-9pm.  Which is much better than the 10pm-12am bed time we did before.  He's also been skipping his 2nd nap - he's just too energetic, and by the time we're ready for a nap, it's already 5pm - toooooo late.  My schedule sort of prohibits later naps (we pick up DD from school so we're gone from 2pm-330pm - then it's snack time, etc.  And all the neighborhood kids are out playing - DS doesn't do well with the noise.

Bad news:  At night though, he's been waking up 2-3 hours after I lay him down - and I might get him back to sleep. But then when he wakes up 1-2 hours later - I am so tired I just say "f*** it" and bring him in to bed.  I think its a combo of teething and trying to establish (unsuccessfully on my part) a new routine.

So, as for night time stuff - what would be the best way to proceed?  I have to be up at 7am to get DD ready for school and load DD & DS up to drive her to school...It's difficult for me to go to bed much earlier at night (I work from home and I'm taking 2 correspondence courses, so whatever I don't get done during his 1st nap, I finish up at night).

Again, sorry for the long post.  And I really appreciate all the advice and support!!

PS - I checked out the BW for toddlers at the library today. Interesting information thus far.  DS is very much a 'spirited' toddler!

[mari]

You are doing really well so far.  All I can say for the nightwakings is being persistent with whatever you do will stick eventually. (that does mean that is you give in and take him to bed, that will stick too so beware!)
It is hard, I know, but it will pay off in the end, honestly. 

When he wakes, is he really awake, or just grizzling?  Only go in when he is aawake and try to do as little as you can to get him back to sleep, such as sh pat. Try not to pick him up, if he stands, lay him back down.  Basically, however you got him to sleep when he went to bed, do that for the nightwakings so it's consistent.

[AKMomma]

As for the night waking - he's awake and crying.  But I'm not sure if he's completely awake.  Some times he holds his arms out for me.  He's not standing up - just laying down crying, and chewing on his fingers.  As soon as I walk in to his room and sit next to his bed he gets really upset.  I've tried sh pat a few times (the first time he wakes up - earlier in the evening) and that works some times.  I just don't have the energy in the middle of the night to sit in his room for hour(s)...

We'll see how it goes tonight.

[mari]

Have you tried just saying shshsh from the door, really quietly and soothingly? It might be that he isn't awake, just crying in his sleep and bothering you more than it bothers him.  And perhaps you going in is disturbing him further.  Not sure if that's the case, just wondering???  Also, do you have a monitor in your room?  could you go with opening his door and hearing him from there?  When Alex was just wimpering it came through the monitor really loudly, but I turned the monitor down and the small wimpers didn't wake me, just the real cries.

The naps after lunch should work well, perhaps if you could do a slightly earlier one, hoping that he will sleep longer so combat the overtiredness which is usually what causes the nightwakings.  I doubt that 1.5 hours during the day is quite enough for him, I would think that he would do with a nap in the morning as well, just a little one, but if you are struggling with that try to get the pm one as early and long as possible so that he will benefit from it. If he is doing 1 nap only try not to leave too long between sleeps, eg no longer than 5.5 hours after morning wake up go for the pm nap, then 5.5 hours after wake up from pm nap, go for bed time.  It might take time to get him into it, but I felt that any longer than 5.5 hours between sleep and naps when she was on one nap a day was far too long.

You are going well, so keep it up.  By the time your new baby is born hopefully you and your son will be well rested and ready to start all over again!!!!  (sorry, I truly hope not honestly! xx)

[AKMomma]

I have tried shshsh from the door - it really makes him angry!

I do have a monitor - which makes every little move seem quite loud.  The monitor will have to stay as my husband it up late - the noise would wake him.  In the middle of the night it could stay open. 

I think he needs a 2nd nap, it's just a matter of fitting it in to our schedule.  his longest nap is in the morning - usually 2-3 hours long.  His 2nd nap has always been shorter from 30min-1hr.  It's just needing to leave at 2pm to p/u DD from school that gets in the way.

So far it's going okay - I just need to work out the nightwakings.  blah!  He actually woke up from his morning nap this morning happy!  He's NEVER done that before - usually it's up and crying or screaming.  He was playing with his crib toys.  Nice!  I've started putting him in the crib while I'm in the room doing chores to have him associate the crib with happy times - not screaming abandonment.

[AKMomma]

Wow!  DS slept from ~9pm-7am last night! Wow!  I hope he keeps this up. 

[mari]

Wow, well done, what did you do?  (and whatever it was keep doing it!!!)  Hope it's still good. xx

[AKMomma]

UPDATE - 10-29-09.

Hi all, just an update.  After re-reading this post, I'm happy to report that DS is now sleeping MUCH better!  We're on a solid routine and besides some early morning wakings (I think he would prefer to go to sleep at 6-7 pm and wake up 4-6 am!) things are going well. 

Bedtime is 8pm
sometimes he wakes up, sometimes not - NOT sleeping in bed all night with us anymore.
Wake - usually 7-8 am
typically 1 nap, 10-12 or even 1pm.
Second nap is rare b/c he wants to lay down around 5pm - TOOOO late!

I usually bring him in with us when he wakes up around 5am and we sort of doze off/on, nurse, play and finally I roll outta bed around 7-8 and drink copious amounts of coffee. :-)

Things have been a bit more difficult lately b/c molars on coming in, but all in all, I'm SOOOOO happy I found these message boards.

Thanks, and I wanted to share some happy news - it does get better!
******************************

[mari]

Well done, so glad that you are happier. xx

[elizamaeve]

Hey there,
I'm well aware of how long ago this thread was, BUT after so much searching, I stumbled across it and was amazed at how similar my situation was to yours. Even with the disagreement with sleep parenting style with your partner - everyone i know always seems to have a husband who is on the same page, so ........if you have the time or the will i would love to hear briefly how it all worked out for you, and if you had any advice for someone who was now in the thick of it. Any special tips or realisations that would help me in this fog?

Thanks

Eliza

[Khalam's Mama]

I see the original poster hasn't been on for 6years now so not sure if you will get a reply now. You could start a thread and get some personal advice, there are plenty of other posters with similar experiences who have come out the other side. Hugs. I remember those days of sleep depravation with dread.