8.5 mo early waking. needs help!

[koe2moe]

Hi I just read the other post about A time extension and how it related to waking time.

DS is now falling asleep for his second nap.  Can I ask a quick question before I have time to post his routine?

What if he had a 45 min nap (I understand it's very likely to be UT), then.. what do I do for the next A time?  keep at 3 hours? or shorter or longer?  I think he's going through teething and developmental milestone at the same time, so he's extra cranky. 

Thanks... Need to go to DS now.

Koe

[*Liz*]

We usually shorten by 15 mins or so after a short nap BUT if it was definately UT then you might not need to.

Post what happens later and I'll try and help properly  .

[*Liz*]

I'm guessing changing th nappy would be too much at this age. W2S is not as effective for EWs and it is for short napping either  . If I changed Jacobs nappy at 4am we would be up at 4am. Full stop.

For me EWs have always been OT at bedtime, or too much total daysleep.

Let me know how today goes and then we can see if it is a routine issue.

Huge ((hugs)) short napping and EWs are the WORST. Especially the EWs  .

[koe2moe]

whoops... i think i messed it up a bit with hitting enter too early before i finished my last posting.  

Cut & paste  (will delete the old one so not to confuse the thread ):

DS woke up after 40 or 45 mins from his 2nd nap.  Now down for 3rd nap.  I can't tell how it all started.  There were a couple of perfect days a week ago.  So I thought perhaps things would go better.  

Perhaps I'll just give you the routine of yesterday which was a disaster because I thought perhaps W2S would help.

4am  stirred
4:30  stirred again (little sounds.  so i picked up DS and changed him.  He became awake and I put him down, he tried tossing turning on his own and couldn't get back to sleep.)
5:30  got DS up
6:00  E  Bottle - Formula with cereal in it 170ml
7:50 - 8:50 S  (I thought he must be overtired, so I put him down earlier and when he showed cues)
9:45  E  Snack  Pear 50g
11:50 - 12:05  S (Fell asleep in the pram when I had to run errands)
12:15 E  Lunch   Couscous, chicken and veggies 90g + Formula 100ml
14:30 - 15:30  S  (I thought 15 mins catnap doesn't count, 5hrs 40mins A time.  Is 1 hour always UT?)
16:15 E  Snack   Couscous (same as above) 50g + Formula 120ml  (normally is fruit, crackers or bread, but i gave warm meal because just in case he got too tired later to eat)
17:30 E  Dinner  Couscous 30g +  Pear 10g   (wouldn't eat more)
18:15 Bath
18:35 E  Bottle - Formula with cereal 170ml
18:45 - 5am   Sleep.  Stirred at 4am again.   (bed time used to be between 7:30-7:45, but last week i noticed DS was so tired, so we just put him to bed earlier to 7pm and woke up at 5:45)

exactly one week ago,
5:45  woke up
6:30  E  Bottle
7:40 - 8:10  S
10:00  E Pear 60g
11:15  E warm meal 30g + pear 20g +  Formula 100ml
12 - 12:30  S
14:00  E  1/2 slice brown bread
15:40 - 16:15  S
16:30  E  Formula 200ml
18:10  E  warm meal 110g + banana 15g
19:15 Bath
19:30 Bottle with cereal 200ml
19:45 - 7:05am no stirring that woke us up.

Usually 3-4 catnaps until this day.  The following day was 1.5 hr and 1hr 20mins naps.  If it would be helpful, I would post the other days' routines also.  

thanks again.

ADD:
Yesterday's  after two UT short naps.  Followed your advice on UT nap, he finally had 1.5 hr nap in the afternoon (3rd nap).  He was able to have dinner around 6, ate very well and happy to play around afterwards till bath time, down in bed at 7:40pm.  Here's the day. 

5:00  wake up
5:30  out of bed
6:15  E  Bottle - Formula with cereal 200ml
7:30  S  45 mins
8:15  A 
9:00  E  snack - pear 50g
11:00 S  40 mins
11:40 A
12:00 E  lunch  potato, chicken, veggies 120g + bottle 120ml
15:15 E  snack - 1/4 brown bread + bottle 150ml
16:15 S  1hr 25mins
17:40 A
18:00 E  dinner  couscous dinner 120g + pear 50g
19:15  bath
19:30  bottle - 200ml
19:40  in bed...
19:50 - 6:00  sleep...  no stirring

So... your suggestion has already helped!  Thanks so much.  Because this early waking started around close to 6 mos, I was too preoccupied with introducing solids and thought it was hunger.  So yesterday, total day time sleep is 3hr 30mins.  Should I ensure that it's no more than 3 hours?  Or was it that we put him to bed too late?  But, say, next time when there was UT or OT, how do I adjust the rest of the day to avoid EW again? 

Thanks

[*Liz*]

I think your EW is being caused by being OT at bedtime. The 1 hr naps are difficult as sometimes they are UT and sometimes OT depending on the baby. For me 1hr tends to be UT but 1h 15 OT. But really just depends I'm afraid.

I would try stretching that first A to 3hrs and see if that improves the morning nap. All these 2 hr A's are likely too little.

3 hrs day sleep is likely about right at this age - give or take.

The key to avoiding the EW is working out how much A your LO can do after the pm nap - whether it is a long nap or a short nap.

Lets see if by stretching the A's to 3hrs we can make 2 long naps though instead of all these catnaps.

[koe2moe]

It's the end of our day and it turned out to be pretty good day.  2 x 1.5 (almost) naps. 

6:00  wakes
6:30  E
9:00 - 10:25  S
10:25  A
10:50  E snack
12:00  E lunch
14:00 - 15:25  S
16:15  E snack
19:15  bath, bottle
19:45  Put in bed but a bit too late perhaps, took DS 30mins to settle fully to sleep. 

what about this 1hr 25mins nap?  UT?  DS was eating well today, playing well.  3 hrs first A and 3.5 hrs second A.  It's quite hard to keep that exact on time.  If OT again back on 30 mins catnap, how much do I shorten the A time that follows? 

I'm going to bed and will update DS' wake up time tomorrow. Have a great sunday.

[koe2moe]

DS woke at 5:45.  Quite happy but now after 2 hours, he has slowed down quite a bit.  Will try my best to keep him for another hour before his first nap.  Since I put him to bed at 7:45, but asleep around 8:15, which time do I count for his sleep?  Does it mean he's OT?

He's already rubbing eyes and now it's just 8.  Not sure if i can keep him up for 45 mins.  

[koe2moe]

Disaster.  DH took over as he got up.  Reminded him to try and keep DS up until 8:45, but he said DS wasn't showing sleepy cues and only put him down at 9:15am!  DS woke up after 45mins, tried to extend his nap, he started standing up and now DH is trying to extend, and I can hear DS screaming, crying. 

What to do?!  What time should be bed time tonight?  How much next A time?!  I thought I had it yesterday...  now it's back to sq one...   

[koe2moe]

You can see I'm desperate and I need hand holding.  Help please!

5:45  wake
9:15  -  10:00  S  (DH told me that when he got into DS's room, he heard some big noises, so he was probably woken up)
13:15  -  14:00  S  (I kept activities kind of low key
15:30  -  16:10  S 
19:10  S    (quite easy to go down, almost falling asleep at the last bottle at 18:50)   (Oh I thought he's falling asleep but just now he's making sounds for help.  so he's still not asleep at 19:25 but hopefully he will be.) 

I don't know what it will be like tonight.  I put him to bed earlier because he hardly got much rest during the day and last night wasn't great either.  Should I put him to bed even earlier next time this happens? 

Thanks in advance

[koe2moe]

5:35 wake up again   

can someone give me some advice please?

[*Liz*]

So sorry I didn't see all this sooner. I work in the early part of the week so am not online quite so much.

OT sucks doesn't it  .

Right A is everything from eyes open until eyes closed - so you would need to count up until 8.15am so that would mean a 4h 15 A which is too long. I think the fact he took 30 mins to nod off will also mean he was already OT when his head hit the pillow.

It is hard to be sure with the 1h 25 naps - really depends on the baby. For Jacob at the same age it would have been OT, but only by 10 mins or so.

I would have done an earlier bedtime I think - probably about 6.45 or so.

Right - so 3hrs A gives a decent am nap, and then 3.5hrs A did the same, but then 3.5hrs was too much to bedtime likely because there never was a beautiful long nap.

Tomorrow I would try 3hrs A - but aiming to be fast asleep at 3hrs, and be prepared to go down 10 mins or so earlier if he is losing it. If you get a nap of 1.5hrs is then aim for 3h 15 mins as the second A, and then an A of 3hrs ish until bedtime. Perhaps a little longer if the pm nap is super but if it less than perfect play it safe go closer to 3hrs. Not all los like long A's at the end of the day, especially if they are prone to OT EWs.

If the first nap is short then its a bit of a judgement call. If he woke happy and handles the A well and you think UT then go for the 3hrs A, but if he is cranky then reduce by 15 mins or so.

I hope that helps. I will be here to hand hold from now on - and I'm so sorry I didn't see all your posts yesterday  . I work again tomorrow so will only be back online at this sort of time, but will be online more after that.

I'm thinking your lo might be a same A all day kind of baby. Have you ever worked this stuff out before when your routine was working?

[koe2moe]

Thanks so much for your reply.  

What you wrote makes a lot of sense.  I'll make a game plan for tomorrow.  But today wasn't a good day either.

5:35 wake
8:00  S  first nap because he's really rubbing eyes, pulling ears, etc.  but only slept for 10-15 mins and cried.  i tried PU/PD... then realised he did #2    so after changing him, he's wide awake.  
11:20  S  35 mins  (not sure if he was woken by noises outside... garbage trucks   or perhaps just OT)
14:25  S  45 mins woke up very happy  but the rest of A was only a bottle, went shopping with me in the pram, dinner... after that the usual wind down prebed routine.
19:30  S  went down very calm and tiny bit of mantra noises...

About his routine in the past.  I'm afraid that i never looked at it this way.  Always just focus on the whole day (overall wake up time and day sleep), prop, teething, HW, hunger (ready for solids), room temperature.  I There were two times I had to be away for almost a week each time.  Not really sure if DH did AP, but I don't want to focus on that coz he wouldn't be happy  I guess I was too preoccupied and looked at wrong places.   I'll go back to the previous days/months to see if I can pick out some patterns and let you know.

i have more questions: So basically, I only go by each A time?  If one nap failed, say that he only had 10 min nap this morning, I just didn't know what to do next?  He seemed energetic and i kept him low key but DH thinks DS probably didn't get to crawl around enough to use his energy up.  

And if he keeps waking up around 5:30 and short naps, then his bed time would be close to 6?  Do I just watch the last A time or do I watch the wake up time?  If I keep putting him to bed around 6, would that become his bedtime, meaning his wake time will definitely around 5?!?!  

What shall we do when we know it's approaching his nap time but he just didn't seem tired at all?  That's what happened with DH and hence the 4h 15A.  Before he took over, DS was already rubbing eyes and then the changeover seemed to have given him more energy.  Yeah papa, new play time, perhaps.  

You have given me great guidelines.  I never knew how much to decrease A time, etc.  Thanks so much.  

BTW *holding out hand*  here's my hand, please take it lol

[*Liz*]

A lot of los just don't look tired at this age until they are SHATTERED. Tired signs become so unreliable, fussing can he teeth or frustration, and if the cues are not working it is best to just use the clock for a while to try and get out of the hole. I always find if I can get consistency for a few days is gets easier as their little body clocks set a bit to expect sleep.

Failed naps are just a nightmare to recover from, and I think often there really is little you can do but enough catnaps to get you to bedtime, especially after a 10 min nap. And repeat tomorrow is another day  . You could have given him 30-45mins A and tried again. Just depends whether your lo would accept that or not. I think that is what I would have tried after a 10 min nap.

My DS gets very hyper when tired as well. Makes it even harder to work him out.

Don't worry about the over stimulation too much at this age. A lot of them do like to crawl like mad  . I don't agree with your DH though - that second nap was certainly OT  .

And early bedtimes won't lead to earlier and earlier wake-ups. But OT bedtimes will. So never be afraid of them when needed. What I tend to do is push the bedtime back as soon as I get a decent nap day.

I think your lo need 3hrs ish A and 3.5hrs A is too much at the moment - especially if he is crawling everywhere.

There is hope. I had my little man waking at 4am  due to an OT loop 2 weeks ago but he now has a nice new routine and I am back to 6.30am wake-ups. My issue was a UT first nap leading to short naps and OT bedtimes. But it is a nightmare when you are dealing with it. Jacob was almost put on Ebay when he was waking at 4am. I mean for goodness sake  .

[koe2moe]

I understand that earlier bedtime won't give earlier waketimes, but what if he consistently wakes at 5:30?!?!    I mean would it reinforce the bodyclock?  

A bit of background is that... He was teething real bad, screaming one night and NWs, then i got insomnia for full 2 weeks!  That was 4 weeks ago, so I just couldn't even handle the day to day.  DH stepped in, (otherwise i would have collapsed).  No matter what I told DH, he wouldn't keep to the time I suggested.  DS used to get tired at 2hr, DH got him to be up for 3hr.  So he did something good  

Also I think the second nap was short because he's hungry LOL... I expected DS to be tired earlier, so he only had a snack at the usual time.  Then when he's tired, it's too late to stuff him up  He was yawning and yawning and yawning in the pram and just wouldn't fall asleep!  I could have put him to bed earlier as I was prepared and fed him earlier.  But DH and DS had the usual fun at bedtime routine haha  

I didn't know that tomorrow's another day i thought it accumulates... phew..  there is hope i guess

ADD:  also, what does 1hr nap mean to you?  UT? OT?  And when DS shows tired cues like 2hr after wake time, what should I do?  I thought perhaps because of EW, he's extra tired, so I would tend to put him to bed right away.  His 1st A time used to be 2hr.  1st nap would be around 1.5hr  Perhaps it's the 1st nap too early that caused the EW then.  I just can't think.  I'm so tired...  heading to bed...  thanks a lot.

[*Liz*]

Lets try and get decent naps and then move that wake-up time.

I agree 5.30am is just NO fun  .

Let me know how you get on today - I'll be around after work. Groan.