8.5 mo early waking. needs help!

[sherry lynn]

But I failed for 1st nap  - you can't think like that   He might have done a 25 min nap anyways. They just have minds of their own sometimes. It's ok. Hopefully with a lower A time he will take a good second nap.

I highly doubt this morning was an EW do to OT. I personally wouldn't consider it an EW having seen your wake ups lately. He did a nice 11 hours last night. With such a good nap day I think that's about right.

I agree that soon you will have to increase that last A time, but hopefully we can get over some OT first.

[koe2moe]

Yeah I felt defeated again.   Thanks and I will try to look at the big picture.  I do think that I am getting better understanding of it but then I'm sure by the time I figure something out, it's all changed!!

I thought it was an EW because DS was very tired all morning.  He also had a stirring.  So the NW for hunger still counts as the night sleep?

6 Oct
4:50  Hunger wake, bottle, back to sleep took some crying and some time
6:20  wake up for the day A 3h20 in cot/3h30 to sleep
9:40  in cot
9:50  S 25mins
10:15  A 2h15 in cot/2h25 S 
12:30  in cot
12:40  S 1h05 (probably woken up by the doorbell)
13:45  A 2h45 in cot/ 3h S
16:30  in cot
16:45  S 30mins
17:15  A 2h10
19:25  S

I have no idea how much A time should be after 1h or 1h05 nap.  I was so looking forward to a good first nap for DS and then probably taking him out rather than just stuck at home.  But it rained all day anyways.    

This is just so tough.  We've been battling with it so long that DS has probably gone through several A time changes already. 

[sherry lynn]

Hi there. I'm just going to offer hugs today.

*hugs*

I'm having a rough day myself.

EW and 1 hour nap for the whole day.

It is rough sometimes. But, you will get past this stage. Things will get better. It just takes sometime.

Plus there's nothing you can do about the stinking doorbell. And there's nothing I can do about the stinking trash truck that woke my DS.

*hugs*

I hope the night goes well for you.

oh, last thought. No the feeding does not count as night sleep. And if you feed it's not a STTN. Sorry I had forgotten about the feed time.

[sherry lynn]

If you get that wake up again tomorrow I'm going to suggest you extend that last A time. Even with a 30 min nap it should be closer to 3 hours at this age. You might not want to go to 3 hours all in one go, but I'd go for 2h45m at least.

That's just my thought. I understand the need for 3 naps because of such a shoddy day but you really have to be careful of that last A time.

[koe2moe]

Thanks for double posts!!   HUGZ to you, too!!!

but dang.. i thought i had to keep last A short   I really suck...

But then probably with such terrible naps again, short A would be necessary. 

But I can count the second wake up time as the start of day??  in other words, the hungry EW and bottle, back to sleep almost instantly should be still part of the night, right?  Then the night sleep is really CRAP!!

I'm not totally sure if the doorbell woke him because it's the postman and our buzzer broke, so I had to go downstairs to open the door.  Because when I was putting jacket on, he still wasn't up!  Perhaps sound of keys woke him, or he woke anyway.  But then... like u said, so many things i can't control...  try again tomorrow.

[sherry lynn]

Yeah, the feeding is definitely not the start to your day. You county the start correctly.

Sorry my post was confusing, I meant that you would need to increase it, not decrease it. After 30 min he really should still be able to do 3 hours A time. Except that it is the end of the day, so maybe 2h45m would be enough.

I'm just still concerned that the 3 naps is messing everything up still   But I understand your need to keep them.

Lyle really did not start taking better naps until I just gave up on a 3rd nap period   I remember when I did that he was up since 12:30 pm - 7pm. Because I was just so tired of the EW, 3rd nap game, etc. But it's not a conventional answer, so I understand your not wanted to do it.

Have you read All4finn's thread. Jess gave her an unconventional answer that might work in your favor. Might be worth a look.

[sherry lynn]

I took this from the second page threads on EASY. From the thread by All4Finn. For some reason I had trouble linking it, so I'll just copy and paste what was mentioned by Jess - Lukey' Mom

i will also suggest something crazy that worked for luke, but you know finn and whether it will work or not. i had luck a couple of times when he was around finn's age (slightly older) by turning his early bedtime into a nap.  in other words, i was putting him to bed around 6 and he was always OT at that point, and we felt like we just couldn't make it any earlier with our schedules. so i tried a couple of times putting him to bed around 5.30, letting him sleep 45 min to an hour, then waking him (hard to do Undecided), keeping him up for about 2 hours more, and putting him to bed. so let's say his bedtime would then be around 8.30 or 9. usually that could get him to make it till about 6.30 or 7. (granted, he would not have had a big, full night's sleep which is why i would only do this on occasion)
from 6.30 or 7 we were able to kind of re-start and re-set his routine, pushing everything back a little and allowing the bedtime to be 7 or 7.30 without him getting too ot and then sleeping a little later.

i also did this sort of thing for daylight saving time.  don't know if it would work for finn but maybe an idea??? luke was/is a spirited/touchy refluxer

If you take a look at the age Jess mentions you can tell this really is a wonky time for lots of moms, that's why I don't want you to blame yourself. There's just so much going on with these little guys.

[koe2moe]

Thanks so much for the extra info and the encouragement!  In my head, I know it's many factors!  But I still feel that 5 mins here and there that's totally controlled by me made SO MUCH difference!  But then like u said, even when i stick with it, DS might want something different.  But that said, he's a textbook baby... hmm

In fact, we have done that what Jess suggested!  But then not on purpose.  It kind of reset the whole thing a few hours later and we start the battle from a slightly later start LOL... Actually a couple of times, DS just didn't want to sleep.  Woke up an hour after normal bedtime.  Wanted to play! 

I'll take a more thorough look tomorrow.  I think I will stick with 3h15- 3h25 1st A for two more days.  Try not to change too many things at a time.  Also I think walking in the pram is really calming for DS.  I need to perhaps modify my winddown to a longer or more effective one.  LizJ seems to think that OS won't cause too much trouble.  hmm wait.. yesterday with the good naps, i didn't do much difference in terms of winddown... oh scrap that then hahaha

should go to bed.. LOL

[*Liz*]

I don't find OS much of an issue at this age, and do think they need time to practise new skills and play properly. I do think you need to calm it about 15 mins before winddown though - I usually find a snack or reading a few books works very well here. OS CAN still happen on crazy days with lots of relatives though. But generally it is mainly younger babies.

What I guess I mean is don't be tempted to keep the whole of your A time boring and quiet in the hope of a better nap. A 10 mth old will not just sit still and do nothing for 3 hrs, and then nap well. They will resist going down in the first place. It is really about balance, common sense, and knowing how much your own baby can take.

[koe2moe]

LizJ, thanks for the clarification.  It makes a lot of sense.  Like u said.. short last A, DS woke at 6:24!!!!  no NWs, no crying in the night

Ok... I'm going to keep my heads up

EDIT:  *with very red face*  apparently "I" was the only one sleeping through!!!  DH told me that DH woke at close to 5, he took DS to me apparently, while he went to fetch a bottle, since I was fast asleep (normally I would give the bottle while lying down haha) he had to give the bottle and put DS back to bed.    So I had a good night sleep.  

so... still on EW... i think the last A needs to be 3h!!!  Oh well... DS down for 1st nap...

BUT...  he does go back to sleep very easy after the bottle.  Is it hunger?  The wake up times aren't always the same, so not HW?  We dont' want to create a habit of early feeding again.  What to do from here?

[koe2moe]

Have a good workday!  Sometimes I wish I have a job to go to.  but then that's another story

hmmm one more question:  If DS keeps stirring at 30min point in the nap, does it mean he's OT?  Can it be an indication?  Yesterday during the 2nd nap, he stirred at 45mins point.  I thought we got something good going...

[sherry lynn]

If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions. (The 5am eating, is another time where some babies just struggle more than others)

At this age I'm really inclined to believe that he doesn't truly need that bottle, and that soon he will stop going back to sleep. At which point you will have to work on sleep training   Sorry to be the giver of that bad news. You said he was eating well during the day

I would go back and do the toddler quiz. Your LO doesn't seem textbook to me.   At least in sleep. I would say spirited or touchy, at least in those areas. I think it might help you feel better about his sleep, and that it's not all your fault.

Good luck on naps today.

[koe2moe]

He isn't as hungry as when we started giving the bottle around a week ago.  Beforehand, no matter what, he wouldn't go back to sleep even with bottle.  I also think since we have been having it for a few months, he's more sensitive to an extra 5 mins too long or too short A time.  

Crap naps...  2nd nap probably woken up by DH talking too loud on the phone.  Who knows.  Need to slot another CN in but will keep it short to see if it improves EW.  

You, too!!  Did you have a good night?

If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions.

He was really awake.  If he just cries and not escalate, we would wait.  If it's real hunger EW, then DS probably won't be able to last a full A time right?  Not sure how to decide whether to get him up for the day or not...

ADD:
7 Oct

5:00  wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:24  wake up A  3h15
9:40  S  50mins
10:30  A  3h25
13:55  S  40mins (maybe woken up by noises)
14:35  A  2h25
17:00  S  25mins
17:25  A  2h10
19:35  S 

Last nap, DS could probably nap longer but I woke him up.  See if shorter nap close to bedtime would help with EW. 

Since first nap is only 50mins, does it count as full nap?  Should 2nd A be shorter afterwards?  Also what's the typical A time after 30mins nap?

[sherry lynn]

Sorry to hear about the naps.

If this continues then I'll be all out of ideas EXCEPT to just drop the catnap, period. I was the last person on our birth club to drop the catnap and I dropped it at 9 months. I can't help but thing that that does have an effect on everything.

See.... for a textbook baby the 5 min here or there don't matter. That is very very much a spirited and touchy thing.

[koe2moe]

Whoops I added while you were typing    

here it is again...
If he is stirring, but not waking I would leave things as they are. Some babies just have a hard time making it through transitions.

He was really awake.  If he just cries and not escalate, we would wait.  If it's real hunger EW, then DS probably won't be able to last a full A time right?  Not sure how to decide whether to get him up for the day or not...

ADD:
7 Oct

5:00  wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:24  wake up A  3h15
9:40  S  50mins
10:30  A  3h25
13:55  S  40mins (maybe woken up by noises)
14:35  A  2h25
17:00  S  25mins
17:25  A  2h10
19:35  S 

Last nap, DS could probably nap longer but I woke him up.  See if shorter nap close to bedtime would help with EW. 

Since first nap is only 50mins, does it count as full nap?  Should 2nd A be shorter afterwards?  Also what's the typical A time after 30mins nap?

I did the questionaire again a week ago.  He's still more textbook than spirited.  But I did understand more that DS needs to let his energy out.  I'm slowing reading through the spirited child thread.  It's long...