8.5 mo early waking. needs help!

[koe2moe]

I'm confused again.

He woke up at 6:00 which was great!  so...10hr 30 sleep.  But only 30mins nap after 3hr A time.  Woke up happy, but seemed tired to me.  No external stimulus that I noticed.  I'm tempted to put him down for another try but then it might end up be UT. 

I'll probably try next A time 3hr 15?  Have a good workday.

[koe2moe]

Hey Liz

I just realise you're in UK, I'm in Amsterdam, so same time zones. 

Here's today:

6:00 wake up (which is great)  (he slept 7:30 - 6)
9:00  S  30mins  very happy  (he was yawning a lot around 11:15 while we went for a walk, so I tried putting him to sleep at 11:25, no success, but then it's just part of A i guess)
9:30  A
12:55 S 30mins  (PU/PD did #2 again so had to change diaper, tried again and then gave up at 14:30)
13:28  A
16:00  S  30mins (didn't plan to put him to sleep but he fell asleep in the pram)  very happy
19:15  S  I started dinner half hour early because he's very tired even after the catnap, and hopefully he won't be OT for the night. 

So..
1st A  3hr  S 30mins 
2nd A  3hr 25   S 30mins 
3nd A  3hr  S 30mins 
4th A  2hr 45

I got so frustrated and felt like a failure that I can't help my LO to have good naps.  Trying to extend his naps, he was crying soooooo much.  Just couldn't calm him at all.  It's as if he's really teling me he doesn't want to sleep.  It breaks my heart. 

Is it possible that DS likes A times, 2hr, 4hr and then 3hr?  There's one day a bit like that just over a week ago but then he was up 3:30-5 am.  Do you count this 1.5h out or as part of night sleep?

[*Liz*]

It is certainly possible that the 3hrs A first thing is too much now that he is short napping again. A lot of los like that first A to be shorter than the rest.

Why don't you reduce to 2h 45 mins tomorrow first thing and see if it helps?

That 30 mins nap is most likely OT.

I think that the good nap after only 2hrs A last week will have been due to the lost time overnight really. Some los do have some strange A patterns - and it is not uncommon for the longest A to be in the middle of the day - so you might be onto something with the idea.

Early bedtimes and dinner are a great idea  .

Let me know how it is going tomorrow.

Sleepy vibes for your lo for tonight

[koe2moe]

LO was for a while waking up around 5 - 5:30, for a bottle and then an hour later, very tired and got 1.5hrs nap.  I understand now that it's probably his night sleep still.  Then he got to 2h first A and slept 1.5h...  It seemed like he wants his afternoon catnap back   

I'll pay attention to the first A again.  This morning we wanted to have him asleep by 2h 45, but extra soiled diaper, etc. got it delayed to 3h.  I also wonder perhaps it's hunger that woke him up.  Because of EW, longer A, it clashed with his usual snack time? 

If external stimulus woke him up, like noises outside, if he's woken up at 30min or 45min point, and couldn't get him back to sleep, what should I do with the following A? 

This is probably not the place to post this but do you know if LO has 4 soiled diapers a day, am I feeding him too much solids???  They get very untimely these days. 

Good night for you and your lo, too

[koe2moe]

5am wake up
7  S  30mins   

last night, crying a bit at close to midnight..  didn't need us and fell back to sleep.  two nights before, no stirring thay we could hear...   what did we do wrong??? 

[*Liz*]

So did he sleep from 7.15 - 5am? 10.25hrs? OT for sure.

What a pain about the first short nap.

I'm going to guess it was UT even though 30 mins. My DS does 30-45 min naps for either UT or OT. 37 mins is his favourite though.

Try 2.5ish hrs for the second.

Is anything else going on? Teething etc? Can make it very hard for them to transition the cycles. Have you tried giving pain meds?

How long has all this been going on now - weeks or longer? Has your DS ever been a good napper?

[koe2moe]

Just put him down for a nap and he was crying.  OT already probably.  2h 50, but not really sleeping yet... or i'm not sure coz if i go in to check, will probably wake him ...

He was very tired this morning and that's why DH put him down 2h.  DS' a bit grumpy/restless...  He used to give us a little cry when he's tired.  Like it's enough, I can't handle anymore.  I didn't have to look at the clock.  These days i'm just totally confused.  Teething is possible but he didn't cry or scream.  If he couldn't fall back to sleep, I would have given him some homeopathic drops.  But I laid hand on his back, and he quieted down.  That was last night about midnight.

Sleep and nap are always a problem.  Dummy became a prop, and it got so bad that he kept waking every transition almost.  So I weaned him off around 7mo.  Then he had good naps for a short time.  Then he got off DF, just sometimes wouldn't take the bottle at all, perhaps waking him at 11pm interrupted his sleep, stopped DF and probably started waking early for hunger.  So I thought needed to get more solids in him and increase milk intake during the day.  Naps were still decent back then.  

Then teething pain in the middle of night screaming.  After teething pain, 5am waking, so we did W2S and got one day 6, one day 7 wake up.  Then back to 5:30, 4:30 wakings.  I thought it was hunger.  If he woke before 5, just gave him a bottle, he would finish 200ml easily and put him back to bed straight away.  But if he wakes 5 or after, just get him up for the day.  All those happened within 3 weeks.  It was a nightmare.  I got insomnia since then.  

One more week later, he started skipping his afternoon catnap sometimes.  Probably it's the transition to drop the catnap but some days he had it, some days not.  I just can't see a consistent pattern.  His solid intake increases nicely, a week after that.  I was just focussing on feedings and teething, didn't think about A time, etc.  I was posting in Sleep and Natalie suggested me post here.  

Last 2 days, we seemed to have got some progress, then he pooped in the middle of his naps.  I'm at my wit's end.  Can't really think.  

He just woke up.  2nd S  also 30 mins   

[*Liz*]

So when he was 7mths and napping well was he on 2 or 3 naps and roughly what A time?

I think we need to crack the first A time and get that first nap a decent length first.

When he wakes early do you leave him in the cot at all or just get him straight up? When I get an EW I leave him in the cot for as long as I can before he goes mad. Usually he will sit and shuffle about a bit for a while and eventually get bored and fuss. Then after I get him up I keep roughly to his usual nap time - I might go 30 mins earlier if it was terrible or 15 mins later if he had slept really well at night but I aim to keep the nap loosely around the same time.

Have you had a look at the sample routines for this age group so you can see where we are trying to get too.

I had A LOT of EWs at that age. It is a really common problem.

Does he respond to any form of AP to get your pm nap in? A buggy ride or something?

[koe2moe]

It's really hard to tell coz there's no pattern.  And usually only one good nap max or none per day.  I went back a little further.  It was better before he turned 7 mo.  1st A under 2h, can be 1h - 1h45, S for 1h to 1h45.  He was having 4 bottles on 4hr EASY and DF.  When he had a short nap, I would take him for a walk hoping he would get extra nap in (I only thought I needed to pay attention to total day sleep).  So he ended up with 4 naps a day quite often.

These days sometimes even when he keeps yawning throughout the walk, he wouldn't sleep.  But yesterday, 5 mins in the pram, already sleeping.  


I had looked at a lot of sample routines.  But my mind isn't clear enough to work anything out.  I keep seeing lots of words and nos.  

If I put DS to bed UT, what might happen?  I went by mother's instincts last night to put him to bed around 7pm but took him 20 mins to fall asleep.  I intended to put him to bed at 6:30 but he just only woke up from his nap at 4:30.  Was worried that 2h A time just wasn't enough.

Oh yeah we always only go to DS when he starts crying.  It doesn't take long, perhaps max 15mins after initial sounds. 

Down for his 3rd nap (it's such a long day when he wakes at 5)  3h A time.  

There are 3 consecutive good days 2 weeks ago.  I quoted initially one of them.  Perhaps i'll give u 4 days:

Day1  (bad day)
5:45  A  wakeup  1h55
7:40  S  30mins
8:10  A  2h50
12:00  S  30mins
12:30  A  3h10
15:40  S  35mins
16:15  A  3h30
19:45  S  up between 3:30 - 5  slept till 7:05!   (if u dont' count the awake moment, he slept 11h20, but minus that it's only 9h50)

Day2 (good naps)
7:05  A wake up   1h55
9:00  S  1h30 
10:30  A  3h30
14:00  S  1h20
15:20  A  4h30
19:50  S  till 6  10h10

Day3
6:00 A wake up 2h
8:00 S 1h30 
9:30 A 3h30
13:00 S  1h20
14:20 A 4h40
19:00 S - 5:44  10h44

Day4 (very good day, though still EW)
5:44  A wake up  1h55
7:40  S 1h30 
9:10  A 3h35
12:45  S  1h45
14:30  A  4h05
18:35 S  - 5:50  11h20

Thanks so much.  I seem to see a pattern now that I type it out.  But the next two days gone bad.  But interesting.  Seems to show a change (we were just following DS' cues)

Day5
5:50  A wake up  3h10
8:00  S  30mins (OT likely)
8:30  A  2h40
11:10  S  30mins
11:40  A  2h20
14:00  S  30mins
14:30  A  4h10
18:40  S - 5:30  10h50

Day6
5:30  A wake up  3h
8:30  S 1h
9:30  A 3h30
14:00  S 1h21
15:21  A  3h39
19:00  S  - 5:30  10h30

Perhaps DS' adjusting himself to drop the catnap or for more A time during the day.  Seems like 4h last A is good.  But last night was 2h30 last A and OT sleep?  I'm confused again..   

[koe2moe]

here's today..  i'm still confused

5:00  wake up  A  2h 
7:00  S  30mins
7:30  A  3h
10:30  S  30mins
11:00  A  3h
14:00  S 1h05
15:05  A  4h
19:05  S  (Do I count the moment he drops off but he jolts back and i went in and told him it's sleepy time, he laid back down around 19:15?)

Today whole days he's not too energetic.  After the afternoon nap, he's yawning in our daily walk again.  I didn't let him fall asleep.  If he's falling asleep while taking his last bottle, does it mean he's already OT?

Can you perhaps spot some patterns or clues that can help us?  Thanks!

[*Liz*]

Spotting patterns IS hard.

Looks like your lo wants a short A in the morning and a long A before bed.

Also looks like that first A may actually be closer to 2hrs. I still think it needs extending slightly though partly to try and get rid of these horrid EWs. I would do 2h 15 A for 3 days, and then aim to extend to 2h 30. Once we have the first A we can find the second. But for now try 3hrs after a short nap and 3h 30 after a longer nap (longer than 1hr I think) then if it is a long nap 4hrs to bed.

If he short naps all day then try and get him in bed earlier. It shouldn't make the EW worse - it should just allow him a more restful nights sleep so OT doesn't creep in the next day.

So that is the plan and we should try and stick to it for 5 days now so we can evaluate properly. We do need to try and set your little mans body clock a bit - and that in turn will help the naps to extend.

[koe2moe]

Thanks.  So you think even if it's the right A time, it can take a few days to settle? 

But if he keeps having 14 hr day, that's not great   And if we keep putting him to bed at 7, wouldn't he just keep waking latest at 6??  How can we gradually shift it later?  Or will it sort itself out later? 

It's fascinating that when a child sleeps well, takes 3-4 hr nap during day and 11-12 hr night.  DS must be so sleep deprived also 

[*Liz*]

No  !! Your DS seems to actually be on the lower end of sleep needs and handling quite long A's in the afternoon.

He is mainly doing 10.5 hrs at night and a 13.5 hr day. There are plenty of babies that only ever do 11hr nights - my DS is one of them. 12 hrs is quite the exception for us.

My DS at 8 mths would sleep 10.5 hours at night and 3 hrs during the day. Currently it is 11hrs at night (usually) and 2.5 hrs during the day. But at 5 months it was quite a lot less than this  .

I don't think you DS is massively sleep deprived at all - its just his routine is a mess at the moment. His total amount of sleep brings him in at about 13hrs a day which is a little short but nothing terrible  .

Yes even with the right A it can take a little time to settle  .

And once we have his naps settled we will just push the morning nap 10 mins or so later every few days to slowly move the wake-up time later. If he is not OT he will tolerate staying awake an extra 10 mins without busting the nap, and I also think when the A before bed is shorter he will extend his night sleep to 11+ hrs anyway.

[koe2moe]

Thanks again for your reply.  I saw that last 2 nights DS was sooooo tired even just after his last nap.  Tonight after a kind of good nap, he's just yawning and cranky at dinner although he ate very well.  He's never been cranky before.  He woke at 5 and went to bed at 7 with only catnaps, of course, he's tired.  If this happens the next 5 days with the suggested plan, should I put him to bed close to 13 hours after he wakes?  Possibly close to 6pm?  But then he definitely won't wake up later... hmmm whoops...  nvm.. i should just go shower and to bed... nite

[koe2moe]

Oh dear!
4:30  A wake up   2h
5:00  DH got him up
6:30  S 28 mins
6:58  A  this should hv been the 1st A

another v long day