8.5 mo early waking. needs help!

[sherry lynn]

DS just woke, so I'll try to remember to come back, or just type hi or something to me so that it pops back up

You don't have to read the whole thread to jump in, just introduce yourself.

Liz and I both can answer questions about it, we both have spirited LOs

[koe2moe]

hi hehe

oh... so i start also there?  will do

[koe2moe]

Still 5:10 wake up, bottle and immediately back to sleep in cot
6:20  wake up A 
10:00  in cot  (I tried putting him down at 9:30 - 3h10, but he started screaming murder like last week when he's UT, so I picked him up and continue to hold him, sing more songs, until he yawned, did the nap routine, read story, this time he went down quiet)
10:05  S

I understood something again.  This is about having calmed him down when he's not tired, he's just not tired.  This happened last week also.  This time I gave him a few more minutes of cuddling.  A time became just a tad bit longer, hopefully won't cause OT. 

I redid the quiz for babies (i wasn't sure if i should do the toddler quiz).  4 counts of D's, 8 counts of B's.  I'll pay more attention to proper winddown and see if it helps with DS going to sleep. 

Today is fine weather, so I'll probably take DS out to enjoy some sun rather than sulk at home worrying about naps @_@  More fun that way. 

Been thinking about not feeding at the first wake up.  But he was again obviously very tired.  I'm thinking about first getting the naps right.  Once I could get 2 or even 1 good nap in, with early bedtime if necessary to keep last A within reason, say around 3-3h30.  Then we'll stop feeding unless DS wakes before 5.  Does that sound good?

[*Liz*]

I'm with Sher on this one - no way is your little man textbook for sleep. Not a chance  . If he were textbook we would have made one or 2 suggestions and within 3 days he would be on a good napping routine. Once every 4-6 weeks it would need a little tweak - simple as that.

All this 5 mins here and there is very touchy or spirited. J used to have his fair share of textbook when he was younger, but is very much spirited now. But always was with sleep. Today I had to go out at nap time - so he slept for 45 mins this am in the car. I know it will be a dreadful battle to get a pm nap out of him now, but that is the way these spirited ones are.

I think I've told you my opinion on 5am bottle before  but I don't think your DS is waking with hunger either. I think it is OT or at least routine issues. Now he may be a bit peckish by then, and unlikely to want to go back to sleep without a bottle. But that is different from genuine hunger.

Now - I understand that it is probably helping your household with him nodding back off after that bottle, but one of 2 things will happen. Soon he will stop going back to sleep, or soon he will be used to being fed at 5am and will continue to wake for it regardless of whether his napping has straightened out again or not. I've been in this trap with J many times - except it was harder with him as he didn't eat well, so I could never be sure it wasn't hunger.

What I have always done is start diluting the bottle to get rid of it almost as soon as I allow it to be restarted, so that he doesn't become reliant on the calories. Not sure if you have ever gone that route before though?

Tracey says you can do the toddler quiz at 10 months - which is when her baby book finishes - so give it a go and see!!

[koe2moe]

Hi LizJ

I'll do the quiz next.  Remember I also told you a little while back that I just realised how much more spirited DS is than I thought.  But then... do I need to do anything different because he's Spirited? 

The extra bottle hunger panic EW started last Sat morning.  I thought it was the 9mo GS that you mentioned.  Followed by 2 or 3 bad eating days.  But I defintely don't want to turn it into habitual waking for bottle.  Will start diluting from tomorrow.  I haven't had to do this before.  It reminds me of having read it.  Definitely give it a try. 

Actually checking my records, we sort of cracked the A time at almost a month ago and then we had to go to HK.  Then it all went down the drain even when I followed that new A time.  Lots of things happened since.  Some nights we had to be out and so DS couldn't be in his bed by his bedtime.  He got woken up yesterday and today from his naps.  grrrrrrr 

Today is terrible terrible nap day but 2 naps only haha

8 Oct
5:10  wake up, bottle, back to sleep
6:20  wake up A 3h40 in cot/3h45 S  (tried 30 mins earlier but DS just screamed like his UT scream)
10:00  in cot
10:05  S 45mins
10:50  A 5h05
15:55  S  30mins (in pram)
16:25  A  2h35
19:00  in cot and S

second A was disaster also coz I had to run errands. 

So my questions are:
what do I have to do differently for spirited sleep traits? 
what is the usual A time after 45mins nap?  same as first A or short? by how much?  (I tend to shorten too much and then UT)

Thanks again!!  I saw that there are 150 messages on this thread...

[sherry lynn]

At this age after a 45 min nap I think we did around 3h-3h10m. That's what makes me think that your LO can def. do more than 3h10m for the first A time. I think most moms did 3 hours. But Liz would have a better idea about that one. Sometimes we had to do as low as 2.5, but there was usually something else going on.

For spirited sleepers, I don't think you DO anything different that really makes all the difference, other than things we've already suggested, like making sure they get enough activity, cut off stimulation 15 min prior, white noise, darkened room, etc.

But, it's just understanding that they will never be "perfect" sleepers. They tend to get into OT cycles easier, I think also. Lyle has been really hard to move forward with A times, then all of a sudden he will make a huge A time jump. But if I try to do that jump all h&ll breaks loose, he has to be ready.

That's all I can think of now

Curious to see how the night well go after a nap day like this.

[*Liz*]

At 10 mths I would have done just under 3hrs after a 45 min nap, and 2h 30 after a 30 min nap.

My routine at 10 mths was
Awake 6.30am 3.5hrsA
Nap 10-11 (I woke him)
Nap 2ish - 4pm
Bedtime 7pm

So his A was 3hrs or just over after a 1hr nap, and then 3hrs to bed. Took me FOREVER to realise J liked a shorter A to bed, although I think your DS might be the other way around.

Spirited LO's tend to need the 15 min cut off of chaos (we do a snack and then read some books). J does best with a short winddown. Isn't one for lots of cuddles in the nursery - often will try and fling himself out of my arms to lie in there instead.

I think I experienced similar with J - I found it hard to extend his A's beyond that routine and we ended up in a royal mess for a few months. Have finally got back on track now.

Nap extension is often less successful with a spirited LO - as most of the methods are just too exciting and stimulating. PU/PD can be a disaster as they play to the audience and get over excited. Shh/ptt was hard too as if he could see my face he wouldn't go to sleep.

Its all stuff like this that is spirited sleep.

Plus point is that they tend to be smart and catch onto stuff quick. J is a gem with little routines so he knows what is coming next. Knows when you divert as well. DH can home as I was putting him to bed the other day so I took him to give him a kiss instead of put him in the cot. J looked at me as though I was daft, refused to kiss Daddy, and pointed to his bedroom door. He had had his bottle and knew it was time to go to sleep.

[sherry lynn]

At 10 months Lyle also did best with 3 hours before bed. But if something went wrong with the PM nap he would be ok with 4 hours. Our routine was almost identical to yours, except I had to cut the first nap to 45 min. I could never find the right A time after an hour nap.

Very very short wind down here as well. But cut off time from stimulation before hand works well.

For us the spirited really plays out in that I will try my best to do everything EXACTLY the same and a "successful" day and it might not work. And he never ever wakes at the same time two days in a row. Even if everything else looks the same. Nap, bedtime, etc. So after a about a year I finally let myself off the hook. That I could only control so much.

A mom of a spirited LO gave me a really good talk on time. I guess I should tell you this now (I've told lots of moms and the spirited baby's board.
Your responsibility is to but them down in an environment that is conducive to their sleep (dark room, white noise, what every helps them) at a reasonable A time. Which for you right now I think is around 3h15m-3h30m.

THEIR JOB - is to sleep. You can't do it for them.  

[koe2moe]

Thank you both for the tips.

I just can't help hating myself for not getting the reasonable A time right to put him down.  I know I shouldn't do that because it doesn't do anyone any good.  

I also can't decide when we're 10mins away from home and DS is about to nod off.  If I let him nod off, he will wake with 10mins nap, or i just continue walking or keep him up until we got home.  I tried that yesterday and that's when it went horribly wrong.  I guess...  I shouldn't try to play God  

But good thing is that DS is quite exact with timing in the sense that after 25min nap, he wants 2h25mins A time.  EXACT haha that's really funny.  Somehow I just can't work out the correct A sequence/winddown to get him to a calm level to sleep.  

I guess I should accept that I can never have a nap during the day.  haha  

I have copied and pasted the last 3 messages separately on a file for quick reference  Thanks so much.

Will post an update on today....

oh Sherry, btw... 5:02 wake up this morning.  6:24 wake again.

[sherry lynn]

I never. EVER got a single nap during the day until DS went to one nap, solidly. So not until he was close to 18 months old. Sorry

If he is nodding off. Just keep going, seriously. It will save you a huge headache, and a nap here or there in the stroller is not going to make him dependent on it.

You are giving him reasonable A times. Just the fact that you are trying so hard shows that. I think the message was supposed to be that your not one of those moms that is keeping him up for 5 hours and then trying to figure out why he won't sleep.

I hope the day goes well.

The exact times shows it might be becoming a habit.

[koe2moe]

DS used to sleep after every feed or after we started EASY, before every feed.  sigh...  But I had to express. 

I wasn't worried about sleeping in pram becoming a prop.  I was more concerned about a 30min nap and then the whole day shifts earlier and earlier and ended up with OT bedtime. 

Today turned out to be very interesting:

5:02  wake up, bottle (diluted), back to sleep
6:24  wake up, A 4h30
10:54  S 44mins
11:38  A  3h15
14:53  S  45mins
15:38  A  3h37
19:15  S 

1st A was due to the arriving at home and he's just woken from the about-to-nod-off state.  Screamed and wouldn't go to sleep.  I learned from the day before to put him back in the pram to go for a walk.  Otherwise it would be another 5h A!!!   

18months!!!!  DS will be 10 months tomorrow YAY  

[*Liz*]

There is hope - J is basically on one nap at 12.5 mths  .

[sherry lynn]

You're a lucky women Liz. We had 2-1 craziness from 10-14/15 months    With some calm weeks in there.

Lyle was on one nap earlier, but I didn't trust it enough to relax enough to take a nap

[koe2moe]

but I didn't trust it enough to relax enough to take a nap

hahaha i have been worrying too much to have any sleep that even sleeping pills weren't working.  this antihistamine that knocked me out worries me hahaha

yeah i should just relax... (it's easier said than done)...  DH just told me that I should get out and about more often.  Yeah... with all the food, diapers and disaster poopie diapers... it's just bringing the whole works out to a foreign place to do with no help!!! hmmm  I don't fancy that too much somehow.. perhaps i'm just not game enough

[sherry lynn]

I don't get out much either. But, your DH does have a point. Have you been able to find any baby groups or anything of the sort. I don't go much, but when I do go I usually enjoy it and think, why don't I come more often