1 year old, early waking and 2 - 1 transition

[jgobelle]

I posted earlier about my LO being a early riser (around 515-545)  I have been trying to adjust his rountine, but I'm not sure if I'm heading in the right direction as there has been no change in his waking time.  I also need help in getting him down without him falling asleep on me.  This is our current routine
Wake 5 15 (try to settle him in the crib but he won't sleep, just settles until I go to leave then flips over and crys for me, I have                   
tried for up to 45 min with no success) Sometimes I bring him to bed to try and get some extra sleep, but usually he just starts playing and chatting. 
Eat 7am 8oz bottle
Sleep 10 30ish
Wakes 11 30/12 (he normally naps about 1 1/2, but sometimes when I push his nap later he won't sleep as long)
Eat Lunch 12 is (depending on napping)
bottle 3:00
Sleep 3 30/4 (sometimes he skips this nap all together, but sleeps anywhere from 1/2 hour to an hour.
Dinner 5:00
Bedtime 730/8
I'm at a loss, I read through the 2-1 transition, but I'm not sure if I should cut back the 1st nap to 1:15 and try and get a better 2nd nap, and how long should that nap be?? or do I push the morning later and get rid of the second nap all together?  He is a very active baby, (started walking at 10 months, and hasn't stopped moving since)
My second problem is getting him to go down with out me.  He is a very spirited baby and very stubborn and will scream if he doesn't get his way.  I've tried putting him down drowsy, but he wakes right up and stands up and cry's.  I've tried just laying him back down and walking away, but he'll get up and scream again.  I've spent up to an hour trying this, and finally given up and let him snuggle with me till he falls asleep.  I don't rock him at all he just lays in my arms and I pat his back a bit then he falls fast asleep.  I feel like such a failure right now,  he's waking early, won't settle on his own, and we're having major feeding problems too!  I just don't know where to start with him.

[elmarie]

Hi, moving this to Toddler sleep for you where you will get fab advice 

[deckchariot]

{{{{{{hugs}}}}} it sounds like you've got a lot going on right now.  In terms of how to approach the switch, There are basically 2 approaches to the switch:
1) keep 1st nap at the same A time every day, but gradually shorten the length of it; at the same time, move pm nap earlier (by the same amount you shorten nap 1).  When nap 1 is <30 min, attempt to cut it out and just have 1 nap.
2) push morning A time later, allow your bub to sleep as long as they want in the am, then do a late pm catnap (can be a shorter A time than in the am, as you don't want them to take a full nap); eventually cut out pm catnap.

If he needs a longer A time before bed, then option #1 is generally better.  If he doesn't and HATES being woken from the am nap, option #2 may be better.  In both cases, you can offer an early bedtime if one/both of the naps is bad.

Whichever approach you choose - it's best to go gradually - so either cut 15 min off the am nap every 3-5 days or lengthen the am A time by 15 min every 3-5 days.  It also is helpful to know about how much day sleep is "optimal" for your ds and how much A time he needs (minimum) between his last nap and bedtime - that can help you plan out the day.

In terms of independent sleeping, there are a couple of different strategies to use - gradual withdrawal and wi/wo.  I'm told that spirited bubs do not like gradual withdrawal - but each bub is different, and since he does fall asleep if you hold him, he may do fine with gw (many spirited bubs don't like it because your presence in the room prevents them from falling asleep).  Here's a link on the two:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0  Whichever way you choose, it's really important to be super consistent.  Each time you pick him up and cuddle him to sleep, you've shown him that if he cries long enough and hard enough, you'll cuddle him to sleep, so he'll keep trying.  When we did wi/wo with our dd (to break some APing we'd done while she was sick), it took 4 hrs the first night.  But the second night was just over an hour, the 3rd was 20 min and not at all the 4th night.  So it is hard, and there were lots of tears, but it did work.

If you want to develop a plan for the 2 to 1 switch and for weaning off the cuddle to sleep, we can take a look at it and help you along the way.

hth
michelle

[jgobelle]

I would love some help on the cuddle to sleep weaning!  I think I have a handle on the 2-1 transition now, and he seems to be adjusting ok, as long as he doesn't get too over tired.  I tired pu/pd last night and he scream for over an hour.  Every time I would lay him down and turn to walk away he would stand up and scream.  I would then lay him down again and he'd settle as soon as I laid him down, then as soon as I walked away he cry again.  I then tried sitting in the chair in his room instead of leaving, but that didn't help at all either. Finally my husband came in and rubbed his back til he fell asleep. So here are my questions 1)how long do I spend with  him when I lay him down, do I rub or pat his back at all, or just lay him down a walk away.  2) When I go to leave if he stands up and starts crying immediately do I leave him for a second, or turn around and go back to him. 3) Do I attempt daytime naps as well, if so, if he's taking up to an hour to fall asleep, how long do I let him sleep for, especially if it's his first nap example first nap is normally around 10 am if he doesn't sleep till after 11, and sleeps to 12/12 30 what do I do with his second nap (his up to 4 hours of awake time which would put his second nap at 4/430, which usually throws off his night time sleep)

[deckchariot]

I probably wouldn't do pu/pd - it sounds like gradual withdrawal may be a better approach as pu/pd (which is really for younger bubs) or wi/wo may be too drastic of a switch from the cuddle to sleep.  In terms of your questions:
1)if you do gradual withdrawal, you start by staying til he's asleep.  Rub his back if that's what works - that's one step removed from cuddling - so you rub til he's asleep, then you withdraw to just holding his hand til he falls asleep, then just sitting next to him, then sitting further away, etc.
2)that's why initially, you stay til he's asleep - just like with cuddling, only you're not cuddling now.  With gw, it will be awhile before you actually leave the room while he's still awake.
3)most mums find that they have quicker results if they do naps and nighttime the same; however, some mums find it's easier for them to just focus on one, even thought the overall process may take longer - so that's really your decision.  I would say that if you do it for naps, plan your day around when the 2nd nap needs to start and how much time he needs between naps, and that will tell you when to wake him from nap #1 - so if he needs to start his 2nd nap by 3 (to get a decent nap in and get up in time to go to bed), and he needs 4 hrs in between, then he needs to be up from his first nap by 11 - so that's now long he sleeps (and that may mean that sometimes he doesn't sleep).

does that help?  GW is not a quick process, but he's had a whole year of being cuddled to sleep  - it's all he knows, so it will take awhile for him to learn how to do it another way.

[jgobelle]

So started the gradual removal today, I decided to do daytime naps as well, I don't want to confuse him, and I'm afraid if we only do it at night we might undo anything we accomplish at night if I cuddle him during the day. So his first nap went ok, he's usually pretty tired and has been known to fall asleep on the floor, so as soon as we finished his book, and he started falling asleep on me I took him upstairs to bed, he started crying and i just put my hand on his tummy till he settled down and was almost asleep then I just sat by his crib, he looked over at me a couple of times, then fell asleep.  Pretty good for the first try I think, but the first nap has always been pretty easy to get him down, so we'll see tonight!
As for the 2-1 I'm finding he sleeps so well for his first nap (normally 1 1/2 to 2 hours) that I don't want to mess that nap up, his afternoon nap is hit or miss sometimes only 30 min to 1/2 hour.  How much daytime sleep should he need?  Is 2 hours enough, should I cut out the afternoon nap and put him down early for bed? I'm trying to get him to stay up longer in the morning but when he wakes up at 6am he ususally fall's asleep sitting up if I try and push it past 3 hours of activity time.( which only brings us to 9am sometime 930) He seems to be an early riser no matter what time he goes down he rarely sleeps past 6. at night even if he misses his afternoon nap he wont settle until at least 7pm, so if he's up from his first nap at 11 30 or 12 then he's up for 7 hours! then we run into ot problems. any suggestions?

[deckchariot]

At a year, daytime sleep needs are about 2.5  - 3 hrs. and 11.5 at night.  He nap-wise sounds like my dd - we did the long am nap/short pm nap approach I mentioned in my previous post.  So you'd let him sleep as long as he wants then for that am nap and then do a later pm catnap (usually only about 30 min or so) - aiming for 2.5ish hrs total of daytime sleep.  Most bubs don't work well going to one nap cold turkey, so I'd keep offering that pm catnap - especially until you can extend the  A time before his first nap - you really want that nap to be after lunch when he goes to just one nap.  So you'd gradually be increasing that morning A time.  If he sleeps from 9:30 - 11/11:30, I wouldn't even try a pm catnap til 2/2:30 at the earliest.  And if he doesn't take the pm catnap, I'd do early bedtime  - as early as 6:30/7. 

[jgobelle]

So, I think the gradual withdrawal is going pretty well still, am nap has gotten easier, I can sit by his door now and he's ok with that, and at night I still have to stay a bit closer or he can't see me at all, but he falls asleep pretty quickly.  My new problems, which i think is due to teething, is he's waking at around 4 30/5 and wants to sleep but wont settle at all, I given him some teething gel, and tylenol, and he'll sleep for about 5 to 10 min the wake and cry, I go in settle him leave, and he's crying again after about 5 to 10 min.  I'm hoping it's only a stage because of the teething, but it's been tough because I know he's super tired still.  But unfortunately I've broken a big rule and brought him to bed with me in the morning so we can both get a little more sleep in the morning, or we're both really  grumpy  I'm sure I'm causing a bigger problem, but I don't know what else to do, if I don't he's up and down until we get up at 630/7, and grumpy, then he's falling asleep early for his am nap, which messes up his 2-1 transitioning. Who knew having kids was so complicated! 

[deckchariot]

teething can definitely mess up sleep!!  Do you give meds before bt at night (I would do it 30 min before)?  I'm wondering if that would make a difference with the EW.  Is his EW always at the same time?  you could try a bit of w2s and go in 30 min before he wakes and give him meds (if it's pain from the teeth).  Yep, those EWs can mess up the transition, but given all the hard work you've done with GW, I'd rather chuck the transition routine than bring him to bed with you - I'd move his am nap earlier and still let him sleep as long as he wants (though I wouldn't do the am nap before 9:30 at the earliest - as that can mess up night sleep - I'd try to keep him up til 10 would be even better), and still do the pm catnap (which may need to be earlier and longer).  Because once the teething pain is past, you can get right back to the transition, that's easier to do than re-do the sleep training.  Does that make sense?

[jgobelle]

Ok so the putting to sleep is getting much better. Night time is going well, the last two night I put him down rubbed his belly for a few seconds then walked away slowly saying "shhhh" if he started to squirm, and he went right to sleep. AM nap is a bit trickier because he falls asleep really quickly, we'll just be having some quiet time and he'll fall asleep on me, but he normally wakes up when I take him to bed and settles fairly quickly when I put him down. he'll nap anywhere from 1 to 2 hours (usually 1 1/2) the second nap is tough sometimes he misses it completly, others it's a struggle to get him to settle down, even though he's super tired, if I get him down it only lasts about 30min to an hour.  So here's the new struggle, the EW has switched to a NW around 2am, and he will not go back to sleep! I lay him down he's quiet I sit with him for a bit and he'll either sleep for about 15-30min then wake up again and cry for me, or as soon as I try and leave the room he wakes up and stands up in the crib.  This has gone on for over 2 hours when he'll finally sleep for a bit longer (usually 430-630) and then he's up for the day.  It's exhausting!  I've given him teeting gel, pain killers- no help at all.  Here is his current routine. It's so hard to tell what the problem is, too much sleep during the day or not enough, Teething, or tummy problems.  Too full, too hungry??? Here is his current routine:
W 615ish
bottle 7am
E 8am
N 10am (sometime 1030)
wake 1130
lunch 12 (normally a cup of yogurt and a small jar of veggies)
snack (sometimes 6oz of formula or some kind of food snack)
nap 3(330)
wake 4 (415)
dinner 5 ( a small jar of mixed protein and veggie or pasta plus a fruit cup)
bedtime bottle 7
bed 730/8

[deckchariot]

his routine doesn't look all that off - the only thing I might do is move the bedtime a wee bit earlier since he's waking so early.  At a year, most bubs still do best on a 12 hr day/night, although that can be a bit difficult as you navigate the switch.  Do you know roughly about how much day sleep seems to be optimal for him?  If he's getting 1.5 in the am and only 30 min in the pm, I'm guessing he's OT, and I'd move his bedtime earlier.  Since you mention that he's sometimes super tired for that pm nap and it's a struggle to put him down, you could move that nap earlier in the day as well, which might make it easier to move the bedtime earlier.  {{{{hugs}}}}} 

I'm glad you are seeing some success with gradual withdrawal!!!  I'd keep doing that - even for the NWs.  Hang in there!!  You really have made a lot of progress!!

[jgobelle]

Ok I, so the NW have ended, but he's back to waking around 530am and won't settle so we just get up.  What's frustrating is for a couple of days, after the NW ended we were doing great with our 2-1 trans, He would wake up around 630/7 and go down for 1 nap at 1145/12 and sleep for 2 hours, then go to bed between 7/730.  It was going so well, then yesterday he woke up at 5am!!! and wouldn't settle so we got up around 545, he was soooo grumpy then fell asleep on the couch ( i know bad, but we were sitting having quiet time to get him to settle a bit and he crashed) I woke him up a 7 so his day wouldn't be completely messed up, and then continued with our normal schedule ( lunch 11 15 nap 12, bed 715).  Now this morning he was up at 535.  He's in a better mood, so I don't think he'll fall asleep early, but do I try and push him to 1130/12 for his nap, sometimes if I push him too long in the morning he'll only nap for 1 1/2 so he'll be up at 1ish, then I guess I'd have to put him down early for bed, 630.  But I find it hard to keep his meals at the same time, dinner at 5, bedtime bottle at 645 sleep at 715. Should I move dinner a bit earlier maybe around 4?? I guess I'm worried if I put him down by 6 30 that he'll be up even earlier the next day. Or should I try giving him a 30 min am nap around 930am then put him down for a afternoon nap around 1?? Not sure if it will work or not, or if it will mess up all his naps.  Sorry if this is confusing, I feel like I'm rambling a lot.  I think it sounds confused, because I'm confused about what to do, Lol.

[deckchariot]

The 2 to 1 switch is confusing - trust me, it does get better.  YAY on conquering the NWs!!  I suspect what happened is that with a few 1 nap days, you thought everything was great, but OT was slowly creeping back in, and now you have EWs again.  That's really, really common with the switch.  When you're just about there, most bubs are on such long A times that it seems impossible to get 2 naps in, so you go to 1 nap, and your bub seems fine, so you think the switch is done.  In reality, they're not quite ready.  When we did the switch, some mums suggested to me to throw a couple of 2 nap days in there every week to prevent that OT from creeping up.  So I discovered after 2 days of only 1 nap, if I didn't give Abby a 2 nap day, I'd get an EW the next day.

So what I'd do if I were you is keep working on extending that morning A time so eventually his one nap will be after lunch.  If he's not had an early waking, go ahead, extend A time, do one nap.  But if he does have an EW, go back to 2 naps.  I'd still keep the longer am nap (use the same A time as a one nap day, but because of the EW, that nap will be earlier), and a pm catnap.  If he refuses the pm catnap, then do early bedtime.  Try to see if you notice how often those EWs appear (after how many 1 nap days), and then try to be proactive in offering 2 nap days.  Does that make sense?  You're getting so close to being totally on 1 nap!!!

[jgobelle]

Thanks so much for you help!  Today he went down for his am nap early (around 10) and slept until 1130 then he had a quick catnap around 315-345, so we'll see how it goes tonight, fingers crossed!

[deckchariot]

That's 2 hrs of day sleep total, so keep that in mind as you see how his night goes.  I found if I knew roughly how much day sleep and how much night sleep Abby needed (at a minimum), it helped me figure out whether it was a 1 nap or a 2 nap day   Here's to hoping for a later wake up in the am!!!