Author Topic: 10 month old - never slept independantly  (Read 4940 times)

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Offline ~Emma~

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10 month old - never slept independantly
« on: September 02, 2009, 18:03:20 pm »
 Hi,

 I am posting this for my friend who has a 10 month old bub. We became friends as we had our babies quite close together and now she is losing the plot.  :(

 I really dont know what to suggest to her as I used BW from birth and it must be a whole different kettle of fish when they are older. She has spoken to HV's who have suggested CC. She is adament not to go down that road.

 Anyways, here is her story. He was born 5 weeks premature but now he is a BIG boy.  ;) He has never sttn the night and rarely sleeps in his own cot. When he wakes she feeds him but I am pretty sure she knows its not hunger. If he does sleep in his cot and he wakes she just brings him into bed with her. From what I can tell I think he is quite spirited and he is also VERY attached to his Mummy. She tends to have no consistent daytime routine. He will only fall asleep in her arms, DH has never put him to bed.
 
 She is tired and he is def OT too. She knows where she is going wrong but has gone down this road for so long that she does not know how to put it right. I dont know what to say anymore but thought if I could get some ideas and maybe help her with a plan to get started. I have suggested pu/pd but I did say that it requires alot of patience. I have never really done pu/pd myself before so dont know what it involves for a bub that age ( and size...ouch!). I now its really asking you guys to help esp when I can give you nothing in terms of routine to work with...he sleeps as and when.

 Just a couple of suggestions from anyone who has dealt with this before I'm sure would put her mind at ease.

 Thanks,

Emma xxx


Offline Tweakster

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 12:16:21 pm »
Hi Emma, hugs to your friend, I am sure that if a lot of us had never found EASY we would be in similar boats. 
It sounds like there is a lot of AP going on which she will need to break if she wants an independent sleeper.  Is there a reason her DH doesn't do the sleeps? 

Has she seen what you do with Brodie?  I think sometimes people need to 'see it to believe it' so to speak.  Maybe if she spent a day with you and Brodie, watching how you monitor his A times, watch for tired cues, feed him only when he is hungry, put him to sleep independently etc. it might click and she will see there is hope, light at the end of the tunnel. 

I haven't dealt with this because I started BW at 12 weeks and Finn is only 5 months.  But with all the AP we were doing in the beginning because of the reflux, I can see where things might have ended up by 10 months...
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Offline ~Emma~

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 12:44:50 pm »
Its really difficult as i almost feel bad for having such a great sleeper. 

I have stressed to her the importance of daytime routine but she cant seem to get it going. I personally think his nights are a helluva lot worse than they should be as he's sooooooo OT.

 I just dont know where to start with helping her, she is so tired and is back to work now 4 days a week so the lack of sleep is really getting to her. This also means its even more difficult to sort out a daytime routine as he's not with her. I just want to be able to give her some light at the end of the tunnel.

 How did you do breaking your AP? I know its different as Finn was alot younger then but any input welcome! I have had to break AP myself in the past but we had always done BW pretty much since day 1 so undoing it is never really that hard. (touch wood!!! I know I will do it again!)

 

 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 06:54:39 am by Brodiesmummy »


Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 13:16:54 pm »
I wrote a long post a while back detailing the Gradual Withdrawl I did with my DS at 9 months ish to get him to sleep independently. Which wasn't too awful. If you think it might help, I can dig it out for you.

You could mention it to her in a 'I was reading on BW about a Mum who did gradual withdrawl to teach her boy independent sleep at the same age as yours...".

My DS is spirited and a good structured routine makes a massive difference to him and how happy he is. When we're away visiting family / holidays and can't his routine goes off, it is really noticeable how badly it affects him. It's like he is so super busy pursuing everything with such enthusiasm and energy, that things like food, drink, sleep, activities have to be really taken care of for him. If he gets over hungry, he's harder to feed then can't settle to sleep because he's hungry.

And the OT for my DS is kind of weird in that to anyone else he seems fine, really fantastically happy and interested. But I know the time bomb is ticking. And when I've been trying to settle him for 3 hours and he's at the point where he is just screaming because he can't settle down to sleep; then family etc finally realise that all that hyper happy earlier was in fact OT and that he did need that nap afterall, etc etc.

I'll find it for you. Hope it helps.

Charlotte

Offline ~Emma~

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 13:37:39 pm »
 That sounds like just the ticket! i told her I was going to come here and seek advice on her behalf but I think she just feels that bad that she thinks no-one else will have been through it at such a late stage. I think just knowing someone else has been there will be a massive cheer on for her to resolve the situation.

 I am going to ring her right now and let her know!! She'll be so pleased.  ;D


Offline Mashi

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 18:09:17 pm »
HMmmmmmmm......the main thing that I think puts a spanner in the works for her is that she is not at home with him FT....routine wise and sleep wise that will make it harder. BUT does her nursery or daycare have a routine that they follow for the other LOs that age, where she can at least try to "enforce" something on him as far as naps go? At this age the idea of "set nap times" really started working well for me.

Anyway, to go to the start, I worked very hard on breaking our co-sleeping using GW.  To be honest, DH and I weren't 100% sure we wanted to co-sleep because we were afraid of the future (ie a 4 year old in our bed) but we were adamant that a 6 month old belonged in our bed. When he got mobile we started panicking - I couldn't realistically go to bed at 6pm every night and STAY there, but we couldn't leave DS alone upstairs in our bed (even if we had rails). So, we had to get to work on it when DS was 7.5 months old.   It took about a month, total.  Not sure if it would be longer or shorter with a 10/11 month old baby?

I rocked DS to sleep as well, and then put him on our bed, and then slept with him, so that had to go.  i started rocking him a bit less - putting him down 30 seconds earlier every 3 days.  When I put him down, he would wake, so I started rocking him on my knee instead of in my arms. Then transfer him onto the bed and stayed on my knees and gently bounced up and down with my arms around him until he was sound asleep - a back cruncher for sure.  Few days later, I just started putting him down on his back, me cuddling around him while on my knees and sort of bouncing him to sleep.  Once that started working, I started snuggling up beside him but using my hand to bounce the mattress. We got stuck on that one for days and days I think, but then I just started putting my hand on his chest and gently rocking him side to side.  I know that all of this is harder with a 10 month old who probably rolls around and what not, but I think the key is for HER to think about little ways she can cut it down to something a wee bit less every few days. As soon as he was used to the new way, I let him keep that for 2 days and then cut it a bit less.  I didn't always have the next 2 or 3 steps in mind, I would lie there trying to decide, but knowing how he goes to sleep and what he needs will help - as long as she can see one step ahead then she can keep going gradually.

Once we got there, I had to break the co sleeping. 

I started by putting DS's cot mattress (the one he'd hardly ever used LOL) on the floor in our bedroom.  Against a wall, and pillows on the floor next to it. We had an Angelcare movement monitor so that was under, which was critical for us at this stage, and a sleep positiioner.  Thinking to what my LO was like at 10 months I know the sleep positioner would be useless but she may have to think of her LO and come up with "something."  I started putting him to sleep in the same way he now went to sleep on our bed.  But, I lied beside him on the pillows I had piled up on the floor. I made it comfy enough that I could stay there an hour if I had to,  but not so much that I could do it for much longer.   Once he was asleep, I left.  The movement monitor helped as he had no rails and that way if he did roll onto the floor, we heard the alarm.  Over time I just needed a little hand on his tummy and gently swaying him. 

When he woke in the night, instead of bringing him to me, I went to him. Lied down on the pillows on the floor next to him and stayed until he was asleep.  When he was asleep, I went back to my bed.  I took 3 or 4 days and he was sleeping through - realised he and I were keeping each other awake with the co sleeping  :-\  The key thing was that I went to him, didn't bring him to me, and that when he was asleep, I left. 

After this had been working for a week or so, I moved his mattress to his own room.  Feared the worst, but it continued on as it had been - he rarely woke, and if he did, me lying next to him for a few minutes put him back to sleep. After a few nights, I put his cot up, in the same spot the mattress was, and just sat next to him if he woke.  I think we went back and forth on this a couple of times, as I do have a recollection of one night at 3am hauling his mattress out of the cot and dragging the cot out to the spare room, and another night doing the opposite....so perhaps I went too soon, but in the larger scheme of things it was such an improvement that I didn't CARE that I had to do that once or twice at 3am!   His naps started getting better as well...he suddenly started sleeping 1hour, 1.5 hours......was a dream.  We haven't looked back from then. 

All in all a very gentle and painless process.  As I said, the exact things that I did may not be appropriate for a 10 month old baby but if your friend can come up with some sort of a "plan" that she can work with knowing her child and her set-up, then it can be an easy thing to break.  For us, PUPD was not right.  My LO is very sensitive, emotional....and so am I.  The crying involved with PUPD is just not something I was prepared to put us both through when it was MY problem in the first place that started it, it wasn't HIS fault that I decided things had to change. And so I felt the process had to be as gentle and gradual and easy for him as possible. 

On to the naps thing... as I said, set nap times worked well for us, and if her LO is in day care it may be a good thing for her to start with as far as getting him on a routine. What ever time the nursery puts him down for a nap, then she can start that at home as well. In fact, around 7/8 months a very structured day worked well for us - ie/ after morning nap DS rolled around on the floor with his packet of baby wipes for 30 minutes while I had BW time.  Then snack. Then toys. Then lunch. Then jolly jumper, another nap, then exersaucer, etc etc.  I kept pretty rigid to the "routine" for a long time, until he started knowing what was coming next. Helped us BOTH out a lot.  I tried to get him into his cot for naps at the same time every day, give or take 10-15 minutes. I learned too that he had some pretty set biorhythms and the idea of A time wasn't really as important to him.  Now, at 13 months, he still takes his first nap at 930 - only 2.5 hours after he woke. His body just knows that is when he is going back to sleep...and over time I have had to cut the length of that nap, but not really change the time too too much.

If she can get a good pattern set, same things, same time(ish) every day, then it can really help LO set his day to day expectations and body clock.  Keeping it relatively in line with day care will help as well.

HTH?????

Offline ~Emma~

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 18:35:52 pm »
 Fantastic Mashi! I am going to print this out and give it to her tomorrow! I am sure she will find it sooooo useful. Then maybe when she gets a minute she cab get on BW for herself and know she is not alone! Yay!  ;D

 Thankyou!

 Charlotte - did you manage to find your post?

 Thanks again Ladies.

Emma xxx


Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 19:35:12 pm »
Hi

I can't find the post I'm thinking of  >:(  ??? but will keep digging. It detailed it out in day 1-4 do this, 5 - 7 do that... will be somewhere sensible if I think about it as it was being made into a FAQ I think...  ???

I did find this, which gives the gist. If it's that sort of plan your friend needs, hopefully I'll have found a more detailed version by then. If I remember correctly, Mashi may have been on the thread I'm thinking of detailing the approach she used too.

So, stolen from another post:
"...Gradual Withdrawl. Initially, it was simply a case of doing a little less each time to get DS to sleep. So, he'd only go to sleep with shh patt initially, so each 'sleep' time I would try to stop the shh or the patt earlier. I know you said Caleb, doesn't like the patting - I'm just giving you an example.   So, I'd get DS so that he could fall asleep without being shh and patted at the end. So then I'd keep stopping what I was doing to help him earlier and earlier. We got to a point where he'd fall asleep just with my hand on his chest (to help the jolts) and then I simply had to be lying next to him. And there we got stuck for a long time until I moved him into his own room.

In his own room, I knew he could go to sleep with me just lying next to him so I moved to his room with him initially, lying on his floor. Once he was asleep, I left. But he still couldn't sleep without me there or resettle. (He was 8m, I think, and still no mantra cry...just 'I need you' cry). I started a faster GW plan (wish I'd started months earlier) which worked over 2 weeks. It did involve crying, simply because I was changing how DS got to sleep and babes understandably react to that. That is the crying in PUPD afterall.

The plan (can give you detail if you want) was to spend a few nights by his bed, getting him to go to sleep without help (I knelt rather than lay and pretended to sleep). A lot of patting the mattress and saying our key phrase over and over. I stayed until he was asleep, properly asleep, then left. Another few nights but moving further from his bed towards the door, so say 4 nights in the middle of the room doing the same thing. Once he could lie down and go to sleep with me sat in the centre of the room, I moved again half way towards the door and so on until I was sitting at the door. At the door, I spent a few nights saying and doing nothing to help him sleep - teaching him that he could do it all on his own, but that I was still there. Leaving only when he was asleep. Once he can get to sleep without you saying or doing anything, he doesn't really need you in the room does he? So you either spend a night sitting in the doorway gradually moving out of view entirely leaving him to sleep (stay on the other side of the door til he's asleep) or just sit on the other side. I spent days in the door. On OT upset days, I still sit with my head occasionally in view until he calms down enough to sleep.

So. Once he can go to sleep without you in view, you lay him down to go to sleep as your usual routine then leave saying your key phrase as the last thing at the door. And hang around quietly for the first few days in case you need to reassure with your voice.

Now at that stage, DS finally started to give a mantra cry! I'd worried for 10 months that I couldn't recognise it. He had never done it before. The mantra would be NWs usually. I went in after a few minutes, resettle and sit by the door until he was asleep, then leave. I did this for a few nights (while we did the above GW plan). Once we reached the stage that he could go to sleep on his own at bedtime, I would treat NWs a little differently again: I would resettle, comfort and then leave, sit on the other side of the door until he was asleep. The first week of that took a while for him to sleep - I think he was getting EW as too much day sleep, so he struggled to get back to sleep when he woke with NW / EW. So sitting on the other side of the door, I'd pop my head around if needed. He'd go to sleep / quiet, and I'd go back to bed.

Then, with a few routine tweaks on his days, the NWs changed again. A mantra cry that would usually stop within a few mins - by the time I'd got out of bed, pulled on my 'sitting in the cold for hours' clothes and go to our bedroom door, he'd have stopped and gone back to sleep. Then, he started to cry out in his sleep - with independent sleep mastered he wasn't waking fully when he stirred anymore. Hurrahh!!!!

And so it went. Very few NWs now, EWs are very very rare and both are for us caused by teething or OT (routine tweak alarm)...."

Does that help?

Offline Tweakster

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 20:08:12 pm »
Wow these stories are great and really show how it can be done.  I think your friend should consider about posting and reading because she really isn't alone...she has a great friend like you for one thing and the rest of these lovely ladies who have all been there done that.  And then maybe she will be able to share her success story too one day :-)
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Offline ~Emma~

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2009, 06:59:53 am »
 Thanks again ladies. SHe is coming round later and I have printed off your posts, thankyou so much for taking the time to write them. I am so grateful.

 Going to show her round the website later so she can maybe get on herself to get some support or even just somewhere to lay her head on the bad days.

 Thanks again,  :-* :-* :-*

Emma xxx


Offline jacsmummy

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 20:14:41 pm »
Hi, I am the said friend and I am very lucky to have such a caring and switched on buddy. Thank you for all your posts, I feel I have got an idea where to start...I'm just so tired that I give up instantly and go for the option that will get us back to sleep the quickest-which is proving to be the way to get the least sleep in actual fact.
I have started by getting him to sleep without his bottle, but still in my arms...so gradually I will try to reduce the time I hold him I think? Also I will commit to resettling him and always putting him in his own cot...even if that means a lot of nw's?
The thing that has driven me to put him in bed with us so hastily is the fact if he wakes properly he get really upset and then it can take well over an hour to settle again...usually with a bottle?
I have been feeling totally useless as a mum, but I can now see that I'm not the first and won't be the last to get it wrong along the way!
thanks again.x



Offline Mashi

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2009, 06:08:40 am »
Yes, you are definitely not the first and for sure won't be the last!  You aren't a useless mom, of course you aren't! But, at the same time, I can understand the way you are feeling as I felt the same way.  If you want, keep posting here or start a new thread and let's see if we can help you get through it one tiny step at a time....I'm not sure how much support and advice and encouragement you want, but if it's lots and lots then I am willing, able and ready to help with that, and if it's only a bit then I am happy to cheer you on as well. 

You have already made a huge step by getting him to sleep without his bottle - that alone can be a HUGE task that can take ages and ages.  So, well done!!!!!! Don't focus on the "still in my arms" bit -- lok at what you have done, not what you still have left to do.   

xx Mashi

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 12:29:55 pm »
Cheering you on too.  :)  :)

When I was working on teaching Charles the art of independent sleep some Mamas on here were amazing. Sounding board, trouble shooting and just support was amazing. Even when it's just showing you how much progress you've made; amazing.

So here to cheer you on, troublehoot, support and remind you how far you've both come on those days when you feel it's not happening.  :)  Think tiny little steps: they will get you where you want to be.

Offline jacsmummy

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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2009, 19:53:28 pm »
Thank you so much...I really appreciate the support...I will keep you posted on my progress, and will no doubt have plenty of questions?  :D x



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Re: 10 month old - never slept independantly
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 10:52:57 am »
jacsmummy, hang in there, you are doing great and have taken a huge step!  We are here for your questions and triumphs!! Big hugs.
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