11 month old, EWs have gone on FOREVER. Ready to give up!

[smahalik]

I've been using BW techniques since my DS was 3 months and have been successful with many of his issues.  He's been sttn (10-12 hours) since 6 months.  However, his last issue (for now) is his EWs (~5:30 AM).  When I reflect back, I think he has been an "early riser" since almost birth.  I remember when we co-slept at around 2 months that he would start getting restless, but not hungry, around 5 AM.  So, we've been working on this issue for most of his life so far.  DH and I both feel like we've been so tired for almost a year now and just get so tired of being tired.  I hate that this makes it harder to enjoy his first year as much as I'd like to!
Since he's gone through so many different schedules over the months (number of naps, feedings, etc), I really am pretty skeptical than any change in his EASY will make a difference.  The only thing that has ever helped is W2S, which I've used many, many nights.  It usually works on the nights I do it (he sleeps until 6:00 or 6:30, perfect) and then will do so for a couple more nights after I stop.  Then he'll slowly regress back into the 5:30 EW. 
He's currently moving into the 2-to-1 nap transition, although I was surprised it happened this early.  Some days he does 1 long nap and other days he'll still do 2 shorter naps.  This doesn't seem to make a difference.  We've also tried putting him to bed earlier and later (early as 6 PM and late as 7:30 PM), and that really doesn't help either.  The worst part (aside of being like a zombie a lot of the time) is that I can tell he's not getting quite enough sleep when he wakes up this early.  If he gets up before 6:00, he's grumpy.  On the good days (usually W2S nights) when he sleeps until 6 or 6:30, he's much happier and well rested. 
I've posted on this a few times over the months and have gotten different ideas, all of which I have tried.  None helped in the long run.  This is the last time I will post on this, as I just don't feel I can do any more to change this habit.  I guess what I'm wondering is...is there a chance that he's just an early riser by nature and that there's nothing that can be done??? 
Here's my EASY, just in case anyone has any final ideas.  This is from a 1 nap day, yesterday:

Wake 5:30 AM (dozes on and off until 6 in crib)
E 6:15 AM
A 7:00 AM
S 10:15 AM (2.25 hours)
E 12:30 PM
A 1:15 PM
S 3:30 PM (catnapped in car for only 15 minutes)
E 5:00 PM
A 5:30 PM (bath, bottle, book at 6:30)
S 7:00 PM

Thanks for any thoughts or ideas.  I'm really to the point of just starting to go to bed at 8 PM myself so I can get enough sleep or of just resigning myself to doing W2S every single night. 

[anna*]

Well I really don't know that I can help - but your routine seems like he could be really OT at bedtime. For us, EWs have always been related to OT. 12.30-7pm (even with a 15 mins catnap) is a LONG time to be awake for such a young guy.

Have you tried pushing his morning nap later?

[smahalik]

He really can't go more than 4 hours or so before a morning nap, and I try really hard to put him down when he's ready.  I know what you mean about the long A before bed, but this even happens on his 2 nap days when there's only 3 or so hours between his second nap and bedtime.  But thanks so much for the input!!

[monsi]

This wont be much help but maybe he just is an early riser. My DD is the same. At 2 she still wakes between 5 and 6 although luckily these days it is usually more on the 6 side of things and occasionally a teeny bit later.

One thing though - she goes to bed at 6.30 and has always done this (used to be 6). Putting her to bed later usually results in  an earlier waking.

[Mashi]

I have a bunch of random thoughts and ideas....

It does definitely seem to me like he is OT.  EWs at about 10 - 10.5 hours of sleep are very often from being OT.  But, at the same time, it does seem like his AM nap is quite long and so he is refusing a PM nap which would help to rest him.

Could you start cutting the morning nap a little bit - so start by going down to 2 hours, then put him down for an afternoon catnap at 3/330ish for 30 minutes.  Then I would do bed by 630 at the very latest. It may take a few days, but I do think that it will help him be a bit more rested both through the day and the night....when he starts waking later you can adjust the day as you go - pushing everything 10 - 15 minutes at a time until you are on the 7am - 730pm day (or whatever you're aiming for).

[Repunzal]

Hi
I would be inclined to agree with the above post. His first nap does seem quite long so by cutting that and increasing the PM nap, he shouldn't, in theory, be over-tired by bedtime..
Sorry I've only really repeated what's above!
Good luck!

[smahalik]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.  I hate to repeat myself again, but please note that I mention above that this happens even when he has two naps.  As a matter of fact, it happened even when he was young enough for 3 or 4 naps.  He has only had the 1 nap day a few times so far.  I only posted that EASY because it was from the day prior.  Most of the time, his EASY looks more like this:

Wake 5:30 AM (dozes on and off until 6 in crib)
E 6:15 AM
A 7:00 AM
S 10:15 AM (1.25 hours)
E 12:00 PM
A 1:15 PM
S 3:00 PM (1.25 hours)
E 5:00 PM
A 5:30 PM (bath, bottle, book at 6:30)
S 7:00 PM

Even on days I KNOW he is not OT, he is still having EWs.  Thanks again!

[smahalik]

I have a bunch of random thoughts and ideas....

Then I would do bed by 630 at the very latest. It may take a few days, but I do think that it will help him be a bit more rested both through the day and the night....when he starts waking later you can adjust the day as you go - pushing everything 10 - 15 minutes at a time until you are on the 7am - 730pm day (or whatever you're aiming for).

And to answer this one more directly...we did try doing this a couple of months ago.  We had him going down as early as 6 pm.  At the same time, we did W2S to break his 5:30 habit.  It worked for a few days, so we started moving his bedtime a little later (10-15 minutes/day).  Then it stopped working after a few days, like it always does.  As I said in my original post, we can usually get him out of it for a few days or even a week by using different methods, but he ALWAYS regresses quickly.  This is why I wonder (as I mention and monsi says above) if this is just his nature and there's nothing we can do about it. 

[Mashi]

And to answer this one more directly...we did try doing this a couple of months ago. 

Yes, but a couple of months ago you had a 9 month old, not an 11 month old!  As your LO changes his sleep needs will change and your routine will need to change too. 

It worked for a few days, so we started moving his bedtime a little later (10-15 minutes/day).  Then it stopped working after a few days, like it always does.   

With this, I would guess that the problem is that you moved too much, too fast.  10 - 15 minutes per day is way too fast to change a routine -- I would go for 10 minutes every three to five days.  Otherwise, your LO is getting VERY overtired and that is why it would stop working after a few days.  Changes have to be done slowly and gradually.

Looking at your second routine that you have posted, I really still do think your LO is overtired. If he is waking at 530 am, then you should aim to have him in bed no later than 6pm -- that's in bed, ASLEEP by 6pm.  Anything longer than a 12.5 hour day will definitely take its toll on him and lead to overtiredness.  He's only getting 2.5 hours of day sleep, which would probably be enough on a 12/12.5 hour day but not enough on a 13.5 hour day.

Once he is consistently sleeping from 6-6 or doing an 11.5 hour sleep at night, then you can start pushing the entire day...not just moving his bedtime, but start moving his morning nap ahead 15 minutes, his meals ahead 15 minutes - everything gets shifted.  After he's well adjusted to that and sleeping say 615 - 615 for a few days in a row, say three to five days, then move EVERYTHING another 15 minutes.  And so on. It's not a slow process but is much more successful than just changing things quickly!

[smahalik]

OK, so at the end of my rope I decided to try this one more time although I feel I've done it before (and he regressed even when I didn't move his bedtime later).  I've seriously been trying to follow everyone's advice to the letter.  ARGH!!!!  It's NOT going well!  He was up at 4:45 AM this morning!  Here's a shortened version of his last 3 days:

Day 1
Wake 5:30 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 5:45)
Nap 9:00-10:30 AM
Nap 3:00-3:45
Bedtime 6:30 PM

Day 2
Wake 5:45 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 6:00)
Nap 9:00-11:00
Nap 3:00-4:00
Bedtime 6:20 PM

Day 3
Wake 5:15 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 5:45)
Nap 9:30-11:15 AM
Nap 3:45-4:30 PM
Bedtime 6:00 PM

Day 4 (today)
Wake 4:45 AM (went in to him around 5:15 AM and laid down with him, he fell back asleep from 5:45-6:30 AM)
Nap 9:30-

During the day and at bedtime he seems well rested and happy.  Please note that I ALWAYS put him down for naps when he's ready and don't watch the clock.  So why, why, why is he waking at 4:45 AM?  I can't do this another day. 

[Mashi]

Well, believe it or not, you may be surprised to hear this, but to me it looks like you are making progress! I am sure that is impossible to see when you are up at 445 am...! He is getting overall more sleep and it seems to be falling into a pattern. Not one that you are happy with at the moment, but a pattern - and that, we can work with!!  Personally, I don't think that it will take much to get you out of what you are in now...I've been there, sobbed and cried over the EWs, and was in shock not much long after when we were out of it. Can be done!

My first suggestion would be to put a cap on the length of morning nap.  I think that it IS good you've let him sleep as he wanted to for a few days to get him rested, but you are seeing some patterns and biorhythms emerge and can understand his sleepy times, now it's time to make them work for YOU!

I would continue to put him down at 930 -  wake him at 1030. Hard to make yourself wake him, especially when you are worried what the afternoon may bring, but come afternoon you will be thankful    I think that I would expect his afternoon nap to be at 230/300ish but it may take a few days of consistently waking him after one hour to determine his regular A times....I think his A times below look quite long for his age and are probably adrenaline-fueled from some OT build up.  Keep bed at 630 while he is waking at 545 -- if his afternoon nap is short then maybe even 615 to avoid an OT wake up in the morning.

I know it is hard to hear but hang in for another few days....if after 3 days of keeping his morning nap SET at 930-1030 he is still waking at 530/545, then cut his morning nap to 45 minutes and move his afternoon nap 30 minutes earlier.  It DOES help, it just takes a few days for his body to figure out what is happening, and for that to happen his morning nap will need to be quite consistent, and not as long as HE wants it to be!

Any of this make sense?  Hope it helps a bit

Day 1
Wake 5:30 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 5:45)
Nap 9:00-10:30 AM
Nap 3:00-3:45
Bedtime 6:30 PM

Day 2
Wake 5:45 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 6:00)
Nap 9:00-11:00
Nap 3:00-4:00
Bedtime 6:20 PM

Day 3
Wake 5:15 AM (tossed and turned/dozed in crib until 5:45)
Nap 9:30-11:15 AM
Nap 3:45-4:30 PM
Bedtime 6:00 PM

Day 4 (today)
Wake 4:45 AM (went in to him around 5:15 AM and laid down with him, he fell back asleep from 5:45-6:30 AM)
Nap 9:30-

During the day and at bedtime he seems well rested and happy.  Please note that I ALWAYS put him down for naps when he's ready and don't watch the clock.  So why, why, why is he waking at 4:45 AM?  I can't do this another day. 

[smahalik]

OK, so his nap this morning ended up being 9:30-10:45 without my waking him, so I'm assuming that's a good thing based upon what you say above.  Hopefully this means I'll be able to get him down around 2:30.  So what is the point of shortening his morning nap?  Is that so he'll have a longer afternoon nap and be well rested for bedtime? 

[Mashi]

Ok, I would keep with the 930 morning nap FOR NOW.  Wake him at 1030, though.

The point of shortening the morning nap is sort of two-fold.

First, if LOs go to sleep too soon after they wake up AND sleep for as long as they want, usually they end up with EWs. Their body sees the morning nap as an extention of the night sleep and the wake up time as sort of an "interruption" and in order to get some good quality awake time, they start waking up earlier - he knows that he can go back to sleep quite soon and sleep as long as he wants.  So when these EWs start happening, there are two solutions (or a combination of both). Which are to push the morning nap later and/or cut the morning nap short. The reason I suggest cutting it short in your case is because he is already having it at 4ish hours of A time which is a LONG awake time for a 10 month old, and so pushing it later will just make him more OT which will build through the day. But, if you start cutting it shorter, say 930 - 1030, then over the course of a few days, he will start realising that he can't just sleep as long as he wants so perhaps he should sleep a bit more in the morning.

But, the key is NOT to cut it hugely at once. His body is used to that big sleep and if you were to cut it to, say 45 minutes, at once, it would make him crash, you'd get more OT and more EWs and NWs and so on. Cut it for 15 minutes and give it a few days.  If after, say 4 days, he is taking a good 1 hour morning nap, a good afternon nap (at the same ish time every day) and going to bed at about 630, and he's STILL waking early, then you would cut it by another 15 minutes.  Does that make sense?

The second part of the reasons to shorten the morning nap is in preparation for the 2-1 switch. Which, I don't think your DS is starting quite yet, but probably will soon. So, the faster we can help get these EWs sorted the better!  With the 2-1 transition there are a couple of ways to go about getting LO down to one nap, but one of the ways is to keep cutting the morning nap, moving the afternoon nap earlier and LO will be tired enough to sleep a longer afternoon nap. By continuously cutting the morning nap shorter and shorter (over time, as LO gives signs s/he is ready!) the afternoon nap becomes earlier and longer until there is no morning nap left! 

Any of that make sense or is it all rambling? !!

[smahalik]

Yes, that makes sense.  It just doesn't feel immediately that much different from our (2 nap) EASY above aside of the 1/2 hour earlier bedtime.  We'll see what happens this afternoon and tomorrow.  Thanks!!!

[Mashi]

It's not really THAT much different, but you will be cutting the morning nap shorter. And making changes that are too drastic or too much too soon can cause chaos. Cut the morning nap a bit, then after 3 or 4 days if it is not showing any improvement then cut it a bit more.