Author Topic: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps  (Read 10213 times)

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Offline brenda2

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2009, 20:42:04 pm »
The df worked really well with dd1 but not with dd2. I have only tried it a dozen times maybe with. Dd2 but mostly it Made things worse so I'd rather just get up to feed her. I'm ok with feeing once or even twice overnight if she goes right back tosleep. It's the 4 or 5 nws with taking an hour to get back to sleep that I'm not ok with!
How old is tanner now?  Luckily we haven't had the 3 hour plus nw like you have but any nws that aren't needed for feeding are tough!
I think letting him fuss is a good idea. I am doing this more now with dd2 Nd maybe that is why last night was better? Maybe not too hard to tell withthis one!
   

   


Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2009, 20:59:50 pm »
I think why I'm going nuts is it's only been in the past 4 nights that he has started these LONG night wakings.  So tonight we are trying to NOT do DF, and then DH will bottle feed him (pumped milk) the first feed, and I will do a 2nd feed.

Yes, 1-2 night wakings to eat and right back to sleep are FINE, the long awake periods in the night are not fine!

Tanner was born June 2nd, so he's 4 mths and 5 days too I think, do our babies share the same birthday?

I think what is HARD is that my good friend who has a baby who is 2 weeks older than Tanner has had him sleeping from 10pm-8am since 3 mths old and is always after me to "get him sleeping through the night and not feeding him in the night b/c he doesn't need it".  I KNOW that is not the case with my son, but stressful to hear that all the time
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DS2--Textbook, 2012
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Offline brenda2

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2009, 01:56:33 am »
Yes! Alexandra was born June 2nd too!  A good birthday I think :)

too bad your friend cant be supportive and help you through this tough time instead of making you feel bad about yourself and hour son. Sleep problems at this age are so common and I think most babies this age do still need a night feed. Those who are going 10 hours at night without a feed are in the minority.  I am going to wait this out another 2 months or so with still feeding in the night (hoping to get rid of the other nws though)  until she is 6 mo and then reevaluate. My dd1 started sttn at 6 mo with a df BUT only after I weaned and switched to formula feeding. A lot of bf babies still need the night feed for longer.

Do you think the long awake periods at night are due to him needing less day sleep all of a sudden? Sometimes it can happen quickly that they need longer A times.   
   

   


Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2009, 03:21:21 am »
Brenda, I am trying to increase daytime awake time.  We are at 1hr40 min now, but still with short naps (we had 1 week, last week of actually getting past 35 min naps with no interventions, but now the 35 min ones are back).  I found a thread for transitioning from 3-4HR EASY, 5 min at a time, so I went up to 1hr45min this morning, and will stick with that for a few days.  I think what's hard is now b/c he is waking more at night and awake for big chunks of time, he is sleeping more in the day b/c he's so tired, to make up for that, and it's sort of this bad cycle...
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Offline brenda2

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2009, 03:56:41 am »
Yes ikwym about the bad night sleep perpetuating the bad day sleep and the cycle continuing. For some reason she had  a good night last night and for the first time managed only 3 naps and 4 feeds (4 hourly at 7, 11, 3, 6:30) today. Fingers crossed for tonight!
   

   


Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2009, 04:01:36 am »
good luck!! I'm headed to bed now (9) and hopefully an okay night.  I NEED to move to 3.5-4 hr consistently.

(by the way, I see you are in Canada,where abouts?  I'm from Vancouver, Canada)
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Offline ~Sara~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2009, 04:07:37 am »
Hi Brenda!  I've been reading about your LO, and I totally know how you feel.  I've been dealing with some major craziness with my DS these past couple of months.  He's exclusively formula fed, which is the only reason that we're now on a 4h EASY, but it took a while to get there.  Our main thing with him is that it is a chore to get him to take 2 hour naps...today was the first day since he was, oh, 1 month old where I didn't have to do ANYTHING to get him to sleep for 2 hours.  I didn't know what to do with myself.

Anyways, to answer your question about being awake for a long time at night...when Aaron started doing this (he would stay awake pretty much for a day-time A time), I was advised to up his A time during the day so that his body wouldn't feel the need to make up for it at night.  That next day, I increased his A time to 1h45min, and presto!  The night wakings stopped (well, THOSE kinds did).  So, I don't think your LO needs less day sleep, but more A time...like his body is telling both of you that he's ready to get closer to the 4h routine.  I understand that feeding times might not be ready to increase yet; but out of the 3 (EAS), that's the easiest to kind of "wing" so to speak.  Try increasing the A time and see what happens :)  Your routine might look like EAEAS (or EAES, if you think he won't learn to feed to sleep) for a while, but I think that's easier to manage than EASASE...ugh, that's what I had to do for a while ::)

Lori, I know I'm no expert on BWing yet, but maybe I can help you??  Judging from what you say about the wide-awake NWs, it sounds like Brenda's LO.  I know you're fighting an OT baby during the day, but do you happen to really clock-watch during this transition??  Since I just went through this myself, maybe I can provide some insight.  Also, could you post what either yesterday or today looked like (EASY)?  Again, maybe I can spot something.

In the meantime, hang in there, ladies!  Some days are all about going with the flow (while wanting to pull your hair out, I know :().
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Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2009, 04:15:02 am »
sara---thank you!  Here was yesterday

I KNOW we need a routine tweak.  We still are mostly on 3Hr easy, due to these short naps...occasionally we get to 3.5hrs, but not often.  I found a thread on here that talks about transitioning from 3-4 hr EASY by 5 min increments so we are working on that.  Here was yesterday's day

E 7:15
S 8:55-9:30, gave paci 2x, fussed, back to sleep from 10:05-10:50
E 10:50
S 12:25 (sooo tired)-1:10, fussed, gave paci 2x, slept from 1:35-2:10
E 2:10
S 3:50-4:25, couldn't go back down
E 5:10
S 5:50 - 6:45 (of course this is the one nap where we had to wake him)
E 7:45
S 8:05
DF 10:00

Night wakings: 1:20, fussed, cried, gave paci a few times (shhh pat does NOT work for my Touchy guy).  Sleeping by 2:10.  Awake at 2:25!!  Fed him at 2:25, and he went back to sleep until 7:00.
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DS2--Textbook, 2012
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Offline ~Sara~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2009, 05:07:25 am »
Hey, no problem :)  I'm just happy to actually be in a position to help for once :)  It sounds like you are EXACTLY where I was about 3 weeks ago.  Short naps are absolutely horrible!!! 

I forgot to ask: is Tanner BF, formula fed, both?  If he's either of the last two, chances are his body is metabolically ready to go to a 4h EASY.  If he's only BF, do you know if he can last 4 hours in between feeds during the day?

Okay, assuming that Tanner can last 4 hours regardless of his feeding method, let's break his sleep and A times down:
Total sleep for the day (wake up time to wake up time): 13 5/6 hours (I assumed ~25 minutes for the 2:25 am feed)
Total awake time for the day: 10 1/6 hours

But, that's no surprise as we know your LO is on an OT cycle...it's still good to see the actual amounts, though :)

Based on everything, I would say that first, you need to get him away from the 3h EASY as much as possible.  His A times are great...like you said, though, it's the naps.  I would just go ahead and stick to the 3.5h routine times for about 3 days--it's not that he developmentally can't handle the A times...he just can't transition between sleep cycles, right??  When you say that you can't get past the 3 hour routine, is it because he is fussy for a feed after a bad nap?  That's how I found Aaron to be, but he really was only acting so hungry because he wasn't sleeping...he wanted the food to comfort himself.  Since I knew he could last longer between feedings than he was letting on, I stayed with him in his room until the next feeding time.  In Tracy's book "The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" she says that this 3-4h EASY transition is one of the only times she advocates clock watching.  So, I say, really watch the clock around nap time (it sounds like your reading his initial sleepy cues well).  Let him get a feel for the longer nap times by keeping him in his room.  I see you have another LO, so I'm not sure how practical that might be for you.

Secondly, the naps.  I see that he has a 35/45 minute nap combo quite frequently...have you tried holding through the jolts?  To get Aaron through his sleep cycle transitions, we do that, plus shield his eyes from the light.  I go into his room at the 30 minute mark and start holding.  At first, he would wake up at either the 35 minute mark or the 45 minute mark and I would spend about 30 minutes doing shh/pat with him.  But eventually, he woke up less and less, though I still have to hold him and shield his eyes.  Also, how dark is your LO's room?  I found that when I made Aaron's room SUPER dark, plus added a fan for some white noise, it helped a lot, too.

I know you said that shh/pat doesn't work for Tanner.  I completely understand that!  It no longer works for Aaron, so we've gone to PU/PD.  It's been tough, but it has helped us--and him--tremendously.  He still cries, but he settles much faster with it than with shh/pat.  Just wondering if you've tried this??  It just sounds like the paci is becoming a prop, both at nap time and during the night.  Our prop is the swaddle (ugh!).

Lastly, re: the NWs.  I'm not sure what to do about those, really.  As limited as my advice is, I'd say to try to work on the daytime first and see how that affects the nights.  It might be that he really is hungry if he's BF.

Sooo...I hope that made sense, and at least gave you a little bit to go on in helping your LO get to the 4h EASY.  I'm not infallible, so others might see something else that I missed.

Oh, I know exactly which thread you're talking about with the transition times...I must admit, it didn't work for me.  Aaron need much larger jumps than 5 minutes, so we went with that.  It was hard, but one day, voilà, I found myself with a 4 mo who was on a 4h EASY routine.  This transition stinks--plain. ol'. stinks.  But stick with getting those naps to last longer and I promise you, within a week or two, you'll be on a 4h EASY.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 05:09:59 am by tersaseda »
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Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2009, 16:43:30 pm »
Thank you Sara!!

Tanner is BF entirely.  The reason why I feel we are trapped to a 3HR easy is b/c of the short naps.  He's used to eatng when he wakes up.  HOWEVER, he has not been eating much at that 3 hr mark, which I think is a reason for waking up more in the night to eat, b/c he ate a 5 oz bottle last night and another full feed in the night.  So today my goal is full feeds at 3.5 hrs.

I went through around 3 weeks where I was doing HTTJ, playing with A times, and I really honestly think the 35 min nap is mostly developmental for Tanner.  I can say this from experience b/c my DD had 35 min naps for a long time, then just stopped.  His room is dark, he is swaddled with one arm out, on his side, with white noise.  I do try to extend naps with the paci.  Haven't done PU/PD, i have to admit I'm kind of skeptical of that working with him b/c he is so touchy/distractible/social.  Once he knows we are there, it's hard to get him to go back down.

Last week we had a ton better naps, made it past 35 minute naps!!  But now we are back to them, so I am thinking more A time is needed.  THis morning we were shooting for 1hr45min, but he ended up having a blow out at 1hr35 and by the time I got him cleaned up/wound down, he was sleeping by 1hr50.  I DO have to clock watch with Tanner.  I didn't so much with my first, but with Tanner, he doesn't give clear sleep cues.  He is starting to (pulling on his ear) but usually can handle a bit more A time after that.

So today:  Goal: 1) 3.5hrs between each feeding, 2) try to extend naps/keep in room longer than the 35 minutes.

I will let you know how things go....
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DD--Touchy, then Textbook, 2006
DS1--Spirited, 2009
DS2--Textbook, 2012
DD2--Angel, 2014

Offline brenda2

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2009, 22:03:23 pm »
Hi Lori
we are in Vancouver too! This is too weird , same city and same birthdays.

We have just gone to 4 hour feeds, 2 days ago was the first time we managed it and again yesterday and today have kept on 4 hour feeds. And alexandra is ebf too. We have had 2 good nights with only 2 nw to eat and I think it is due to moving to 4 hourly feeds. As pp said they can get used to snacking. The only other thing I've doNe differently this week is to let her fuss and only go in when it's an all out scream. We are still having some short naps but now I'm onlyfeeding after 4 hours which meant today she did EASAEASAS etc.
 
Looking at your routine and post I think move to feeding every 4 hours and fit in the napsbest you canaround it. And I wonder about the paci. I had to wean the paci with both my girls and each time felt things got much better without it. I agree this can bedevopmental too...imean Alexandra doesn't have a paci and she still does some short naps but really things are better without it 
   

   


Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2009, 00:05:35 am »
Brenda---I actually don't live in Vancouver, BC anymore (but moved to Vancouver, WA) Today we have been on 3.5hr feeds for each feed and he is actually eating a lot better and more!  At 3hrs, sometimes he'd just take a bit.  His naps have been better...he woke up at 35 min for first nap, but after letting him talk/fuss, i gave paci and he slept 1hr10min after that.  2nd nap I had to wake him up to feed him after 1hr45min, and now on 3rd nap.  It just bothered me that we had to feed him last night when it had only been 3 hrs since he had last eaten.  DH had let him fuss for around 5min, but turned into SCREAMING, so he gave the paci.  quieted down for a bit, but then up crying again so he fed him and he took 5oz!  yikes.  need to get more into him in the day.  Hopefully spacing feeds out makes him eat more consistently.  However, after having 2 feeds in the night (11:30 and 3:30), he did NOT want to eat at 7:30 this morning.  So I don't want THAT happening.

Can I tell you, I am jealous of my friend who has a 2 week old who slept a 4 hr chunk last night, lol.
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DS2--Textbook, 2012
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Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2009, 03:26:19 am »
Do you let her fuss for naps, after an early wake up from a nap, or during the night?  I think my problem lately is is that I have been SO desperate for Tanner to sleep, that I will rush RIGHT in with a paci at some naps.  B/c I know if i let him go, it can take FOREVER to get him back to sleep.  So it seems like lately he hasn't fussed.  Not a bad thing, right?  Except I think he's forgetting that he can go to sleep on his own.

Tonight, after our last feed, I put him down and he was quiet for 5 min than started fussing.  OH I was so tempted to go in there.  But after 10 min of fussing, he went to sleep on his own.  So I'm glad to know he CAN do it.

Here's praying for good nights tonight.  Today was a decent nap/feed day so I'm hoping for a bit better than normal!
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DD--Touchy, then Textbook, 2006
DS1--Spirited, 2009
DS2--Textbook, 2012
DD2--Angel, 2014

Offline brenda2

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2009, 04:07:08 am »
I let her fuss if she wakes early from a nap and at night. If she screams I wait 30 sec and then go in and pat her back ntil she stops screaming and then I leave... Usually I mean if I really need her to go to sleep then sometimes I stay in and pat until she's asleep   She self soothes really well with her thumb though which is why I am so confused about these nws.

I was having trouble at night not rushing in when I was awake anyway and she was fussing so I am using this setting on my monitor. It only turns on if the baby is crying above a certain level which is basically her screaming. 
   

   


Offline ~Lori~

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Re: 3.5 mo NWs and short naps
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2009, 04:23:20 am »
oh I need a monitor like that.  If I know Tanner is awake, I am not sleeping and cannot sleep.  And then once he's quiet i'm thinking "is he going to stay quiet?"  hence why I'm not getting much sleep these days lol
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DD--Touchy, then Textbook, 2006
DS1--Spirited, 2009
DS2--Textbook, 2012
DD2--Angel, 2014