almost 4mo - how to stretch between feeds?

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Hi! My son is 4mo in one week. We used to have a consistent 3hr-EASY but things went wrong when I was told two weeks ago that my son is not getting enough weight (400g - ie 0,9lb - in 4weeks) and advised by his paediatrician to bottle feed as a supplement. First of all I had to teach my son how to drink from the bottle and needed therefore to offer the bottle very often, even every hour, because he refused at first. Now I do both - breast first and bottle afterwards when I think he's still hungry, which he refuses mostly. But it looks like after two days of bottle feeding he got used to feed more often than before. I feed him on his wake up. His A-time is around 1h-1h15min and then I put him into bed. He falls asleep usually within 15min. And then he just wakes up halfway through his nap (after 45min-1h), screaming and refusing to resettle. When I take him out of the crib and offer the breast he drinks like mad! So we end up with a rather 2hr-EASY. How can I stretch the period between feedings? How can I make him drink more (ie to accept the other breast or bottle after the first breast)?
Any help would be appreciated.

[A pair of Charlies]

Hmmmmm.... I'm wondering whether this could be the 4 month growth spurt kicking in as well as the frequent feeds.

Right now, the first thing I would suggest is a feeding honeymoon for the pair of you. So feed, frequently for now. Skin on skin if you can, lots of cuddles and more feeding. Switch sides during the feeds if needed to help up your supply to meet his demands. This will knock EASY about for a few days, so I'd focus on getting the sleep in at your usual times and fitting the feeds in before and after.

The growth spurts typically last a few days, sometimes less and sometimes longer. All babes are different. 

At the same time, I'd make sure that you're getting plenty to eat and drink and as much as rest as you can (ha ha!!!  ). If you can get them, some herbal supplements could help too - Mother's Milk Tea / Thistle, Fenugreek (I've used this many times with great results). Things you can eat that help - porridge oats! Use in porridge, flap jacks, muesli... they do help the body and give you a slow burning energy boost too.

So, I'd try that for a few days and see if he begins to demand less frequently. If not, maybe try a few days more and then if he doesn't start stretching on his own, start working on this: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0 & http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

While the EASY routine times are 'typical', they aren't for every baby. All of us are different. One mother produces and stores a different amount of milk to the lady next to her; breasts themselves differ in production. And whooping great breasts don't necessarily mean a whooping great milk supply either.  And just as we all vary, so do babes. Some are hungrier than others, some have smaller tummies (can only take a little so need more frequent feeds), some larger (so they can take more and last longer between feeds), some like to be feel full up all the time, some don't, some are fast feeders, some frustratingly slow.

Since the books, new research and new recommendations are released. So while the focus is on EASY; it's on using EASY to anticipate baby's needs and being mindful of everything they're telling us so that we can Baby Whisper. So, if babe is hungry... feed feed feed. Their job is growing and developing, and ours is simply to give them everything they need so they can do their job. Which means if babe needs more frequent feeds, then I'd follow that demand for a bit. It may be a milk supply thing, it could be just ravenous hunger... we don't know. So I'd feed on demand for a bit and then start increasing gently. This means you can keep an eye on weight too. 

Lots of Mamas on here whose babes reach 4EASY (the feed side) at 5 or 6 months. 

These might help too:
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=66001.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=94121.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65905.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=68057.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=89943.0

Let us know what you think and how things go?

HTH

Charlotte

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Thank you very much for your advice. I'll do what you suggested - feeding on demand for a couple of days and we'll see where it brings us.

How things go – today wasn’t that bad, after all. Anyway, please look at our schedule yesterday and today.
E    6.30pm yesterday (breast and additionally bottle 4oz)
DF    10.30pm (3oz)
E     1am (BF)
E    3.30 am (BF)
WU    6am - refused the breast for three times in a row
A    6-7.15am
E    7.15am – bottle 2oz
S    7.30am – 8.30 (I was trying to resettle him for another hour, yet unsuccessfully)
E    9.30am
A    until 11am
S    11-12.30 (I woke him up in order to maintain the 3h-EASY)
E    12.30
A    until 1.30pm
S    1.40-3pm
E    3pm
A    3-4.15pm (I offered him the breast before sleep b/c he was sucking on his fist, however unsuccessfully; he refused the bottle as well and was asleep within 10 min, so I guess he wasn’t hungry)
S    4.25 -5pm
A    5-6pm (incl. bath)
E    6pm (breast, then bottle – he refused the bottle at first and fell asleep but woke up after a while and ate around 2oz)

What do you think about it? Maybe you were right about the growth spurt, after all, b/c it looks like he’s quite able to stretch to 3hrs on his own.
I’m a bit concerned about the refusal in the morning b/c it was not the first time he wasn’t interested in eating on his wake up. I wish he would skip the second night feed at 4am instead… Do you have any idea how to make him do so?
And one more question about the DF – I know that it isn’t working for all babies. But shouldn’t my son be able to stretch a bit longer than 3hr between the night feeds? He usually wakes up around 1-2am and then again around 4-5am.
BTW he weighs 14,3lb at the mo and put on 0,7lb within the last two weeks, which isn’t bad after all.
TIA

[A pair of Charlies]

Babes should have one period over 24 hours where they can go longer between feeds. It's the start of the night, in that 'eventually' they will go at least 12 hours between a feed (overnight).

So usually, if they're on 3h feeds you would see a 4h stretch at some point. Which is why the focus on EASY is to make sure that they get regular feeds and A time throughout the day so that hunger and 'awakeness' isn't the reason they're awake at night, and don't do the extra stretch.

But babes do wake in the night for lots of other reasons, not just hunger. So sometimes it can be a bit of detective work to check what's waking them - too hot, too cold, too much or too little sleep during the day, can't self-soothe, wind, reflux and so on.

As that WU feed is being refused, it sounds like your LO is stocked up by that point in the night so not waking from hunger. Does LO wake up on their own or do you wake at that time?

The way to move those night feeds further apart vary. I cluster fed in the evenings and did a DF so I knew my LO should be pretty stocked up. I would do the early morning feed and I think I gradually started trying to resettle that next waking for a feed. So I would try and resettle LO to stretch the feed interval. Once my DS was firmly established on 4 EASY and taking both breasts at a feed, I started to give only one side for that dawn feed. And eventually, once it was an hour or so off from WU, I would offer sips of water and resettle.

I didn't find it that easy though! But babes seem to do this at their own pace. The key, I think, is being able to judge whether it is genuine hunger not something else that woke them.

Does that help?

Caharlotte

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Yes, it does help, indeed, thank you. But before I start to stretch between the night feeds I tackle the daytime feeds. Today our routine looked more like EAESY. But like I said last time - I'll give it a try for a few days.
Regarding the WU in the morning - I don't wake him; he makes grunting noises first and when I don't react for a while he starts to cry. I always try to resettle him but, unfortunately, mostly unsuccessfully (although today I managed to calm him down at 6.15am and he slept for another hour).

[A pair of Charlies]

EASY does look more like EAESY for some periods. Don't worry. Is normal.

Forgot to ask. Are you feeding one side or both?

[AgnieszkaBZ]

I always feed both sides. Since my son seems to prefer the left side I offer the right one first.

It looks like my insufficient milk supply is definitely a problem here. Yesterday evening, 3hrs after the last feed, I was able to pump only 2oz milk  I used to express at least 4oz. It's no wonder that my son is hungry all the time and needs EAESY. I've been feeding as often as my son wanted in the past two-three days and it meant usually after and before bed. I know that it works exactly the other way around but it seems to me that the more I feed the less I have. How much longer do I have to wait for the milk to flow?
I get plenty to eat (incl. a bowl of muesli with milk every day) and to drink. I drink tea for nursing mothers as well. The one thing I don't get is rest but it's quite impossible with a toddler running around 

[A pair of Charlies]

Normally takes a few days (3) to pick up properly. I wonder if stress and rest may be a factor here. And whether GS is making things harder.

Pumping yields aren't an accurate measure of how much milk you're producing or how much your baby is able to extract. It really just gives an indication of how your body is responding to the pumping session, and how much milk is extracted. And our bodies develop over time in how they store and produce milk AND often how they react to the pump; kind of like they aren't fooled by the plastic anymore. 

For instance, when DS was a newborn (up to say 4m), I could express tons during the day an hour before or after a feed; I had lots (exception was during GS where leftovers were minimal). At 6 / 7 m I definatley produced less with the pump; the evening pumping session was getting longer (an hour or so). At 9m, pumping evenings was a 'mare; over 2 hours of switch pumping I'd get 3oz on a really good day. Compared to at 3 or 4 months, where I'd get that during the day between a feed. In those early months, our bodies tend to overproduce - probably to help with all those GSs so close together!

I had great results with porridge. Which I hated until the magic ladies here came up with a way to make it palateable! Now we all have it for breakfast most days. Without it, I get a huge energy slump - so it might give you some extra milk-making umph.

And drink extra water 

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Thank you for your encouraging words, it's good to hear it.
I still feed before and after sleep but I notice that my son gets very impatient about a slower flow and doesn't even want to latch when he feels that he must pump a bit longer to get the milk. Well, probably he got a bit lazy because of the supplementing with the bottle.

[A pair of Charlies]

Wondering if this may help? http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=88759.0

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Charlotte, you are amazing! Thank you!

Our EASY is still close to a total chaos but I think the frequent feeding has helped a bit with the milk supply (as far as I can jugde by the expressed amounts). I'm going to try to stretch between the feeds now. My son feeds every 1,5-2hrs now, however he drinks smaller amounts then (around 2oz), so I think it's time to stretch.
Keep your fingers crossed for us!

[A pair of Charlies]

This might help or at least give you some ideas    http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0

Wishing you luck - fingers crossed for you! 

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Hi again. We still struggle with our EASY and I decided to ask nice ladies from the EASY-forum for their help, too. But before I do this I would like to ask you once more for your advice regarding the "E" part of the EASY.
I still feed every 2.5hr but I was wondering whether it might be too often. Well, my son gets fussy at the 2.5hr mark after the previous feed, however it falls on the last third of my son's A-time accidentally (due to the fact that Patryk refuses the morning feed he feeds not before but after his A-time and this turns our EASY completely upside down). So I'm not sure if he's fussy because he's tired, bored or hungry. Knowing that he must go to bed in a while I end up feeding him at the 2.5hr mark. He latches hungrily but feeds very shortly (BTW he's always been a fast feeder and he's done within 10min mostly) on the right side and comes off irritated (even when I clearly hear that he does get the milk) and doesn't want to latch on the same side anymore. I switch sides then and the same thing happens on the left - after a very short time he comes off and yells every time I try and make him latch. Then I try the bottle but he either refuses or drinks only 0.5-1oz. It looks for me like he isn't hungry after all. He behaves completely differently in the night when I feed every 3hrs - in the night he latches quickly, drinks smoothly for around 5 min on each side and comes off quietly - no fussing, no crying. What do you think? TIA

[A pair of Charlies]

Hmmmmm... I think it sounds like he's not hungry so definately worth moving those feeds a little further apart. EASY does have lots of patches when it doesn't look like EASY (and feels anything but easy!). It can often look more like EAESY... it's all tweaks.

What does his EASY look like at the moment? Did the transition FAQ give you any ideas?

[AgnieszkaBZ]

Yes, the schedule is great! However it starts with the premise that the baby naps well. My son has been waking up after 45-60 min lately with no chance to resettle. Additionally I have to fetch my elder son from the nursery every day at appr. 1pm and therefore must take Patryk with me, no matter whether he sleeps at the moment or not so it makes any plan more difficult. To make things even worse my lo has had runny nose for a couple of days and his struggling for breath doesn't help extending the naps. Anyway, here his EASY:
TUE
0.45am E
4.30am E
6.45am WU (refused the breast)
7.45am E
8.15-9.30 S (the last 15min shh/pat but he didn't transition into the next sleep cycle)
10.15am E
11-12.15 S (the last 40min shh/pat but he didn't transition into the next sleep cycle)
12.30 E (b/c I had to fetch my elder son from the nursery and this takes around 45min-1hr, so I thought my lo could be hungry during the whole process; however, he ate very little and started to cry very badly while nursing on the second side. It looked for me that he was tired, after all, because he almost fell asleep in the car, which he normally hardly does)
1.30pm E
1.45-2.30 S
3.45 E
4-4.30pm S
6pm bath
6.15pm E
6.30pm S
10.30pm DF
WED
2am E
5.15am E
7am WU (refused to feed)
8.15am E
8.45-9.30 S
10.45 E
11-11.45 S
1.30pm E
1.40-3.45 S (with 3 shh/pat sessions to extend the nap)
4.15pm E
5.45 bath
6pm E
6.30 S
9.30pm DF
THU
2am E
5am E
6.30 WU (refused to feed)
I offered him the breast once more at 7.40 and 8 but he didn't latch properly so I put him into bed. He fell asleep at 8.15 and sleeps until now (it's 9am). I'll let him sleep until 9.30 and feed him then b/c the next feed can't be later then 12.30 (as I mentioned we must leave and fetch Igor)
Today I tried to give him only one breast for the dawn feed but he started to cry and I gave up (which I probably shouldn't have done, should I?) Tomorrow I'll do the same and hopefully won't give in.
Do you have any ideas looking at our routine in the last days?
My next aim is to stretch to 3hrs between the feeds (and offer bottle after breast) and go back to the original EASY with feeding after bed.
What do you think?