4 month old waking 3/4 times - any advice?

[charlie'smummy]

My DS is 4 months old and has never STTN regularly.  A few nights he has gone till 5am, had a feed and got up at 6.30am.

I'm unsure what to do for the best as recently diluted his night feed so that he would take a proper feed on wake up in the morning.

* He wakes at 3am, then every hour until 6am.
* He doesnt appear hungry at night (only takes a couple oz)
* PUPD doesnt work and seems to wake him up (plus he is 17lb so getting too heavy for it)
* Have tried a bit of shh/pat but not for long as he screams sooo loud!
* End up giving him a drink of water (literally just a sip) and he is happy to go down again, for another hour or so.
* He has 7/8oz and goes to sleep happily at 6.45/7pm
* DF 7/8oz at 11pm

Are his nw just a habit?  He has never had a paci.  He has 4 daytime naps of 45mins each (tried to change that but he wont budge)

Please, please can anyone give me some advice about breaking him out of this habit?  He sleeps really well up until 3am.

[firsttimemummy]

My DS did the same about that age - think it is quite common (albeit exhausting!!).  I found that I was running to him too quickly and since I now only go in if his cry gets louder, and does not stop and start he gets himself back to sleep and sleeps sooo much better.  Also, about that age I was resorting to cuddling him to sleep as he flapped like mad in his cot (couldn't swaddle as he ALWAYS escaped!) ... someone on the forum told me that it was because I had become a prop and every time he came out of a sleep cycle (45 mins) he needed me to cuddle him back to sleep.

PUPD is exhausting (I put the side of the cot down while doing it!) but def worth it.  First day took about 40 (maybe more - I counted at the time to keep me focused on not going mad!!! - and took over 30 mins) ... 2nd time took about 5 times and after that I only needed to do it once or twice.

It's good you give him water - try not to give him milk, and just water instead - when I do that DS then stops waking for milk (breastfeed).

My friend's LO also does 4 (45 mins) sleeps.  A sleep cycle is 45 mins which means you LO isn't able to transition into another cycle during the day ... again, maybe it depends on how you get him to sleep?  My friend is happy with the 4 little sleeps so hasn't tried to change it.

It does get easier ... although at the time it is exhausting!  I used to remind myself when DS is a teen he wont ever get out his bed and we would have the opposite problem!!! Good luck

[charlie'smummy]

thanks for replying.
Spoke to HV today and she suggested going back to giving him a complete milk feed once when he wakes at 3am.
I also dont mind the 4 naps too much as he always wakes up happy so it must suit him.

Our routine is pretty much as follows:

6am up & 3oz
7.45am sleep (45mins)
9am 5/6oz
10.30 sleep (45 mins)
12.30pm 6oz
1.15pm sleep (45mins)
4pm 4/5oz + baby rice (just started)
4.30pm sleep (45 mins)
6.15pm bath, feed 7/8oz
7pm asleep
11pm DF 7/8oz

It isnt exact times each day as we go out alot so it can be difficult to stick to, but is based around above routine.  Today his last nap ended up being 3.45pm to 4.15pm so he was asleep by 6.30pm!

Our bedtime routine is 6.15pm bath and pyjamas, 6.45pm milk feed and story if he hasnt started falling asleep.  Into cot+ sleeping bag awake (normally).  Mobile on and he goes to sleep very happy and cooing to himself.

Thanks for any advice!

[firsttimemummy]

It sounds like you are doing lots of great things - he can get himself to sleep and he has a lovely routine (DS is 9 months old today and I can now really see the benefits of having a routine.... he loves it!!!).  See how he goes with a full feed at 3am and hope that keeps him going til morning.  If that is the case maybe you could up his feeds/solids during the day?

Sure more knowledgeable people will be able to advise better ... but give yourself a pat on the back that you are doing well

[charlie'smummy]

thanks for the comments - I feel like Im doing a fairly decent job now!

I don't put his mobile on again when he wakes at night as usually he is pretty much asleep and I worry it might wake him more.

As for the solids, my HV suggested giving them after first feed so he has the whole day to react if he is going too. Also as he doesnt take much milk to begin with it may work better so he still takes his full feed at tea time.  I dont intend to rush the solids but feel he is ready.

I have been trying to extend the first A time to 2 hours, and have succeeded a couple of times.  But when he has such a bad night it is really difficult to get him to go so long.  Even when A time does get to 2 hours he still only sleeps for 45 minutes.

I feel I am lucky that he sleeps 4 times a day - he could have been the opposite and not slept at all!!

[charlie'smummy]

Hi again
I'm afraid things have got slowly worse and I really dont know what else to do.
LO is now 5 months, and nw more frequent.  He now wakes at 1am and then every 1.5 hours until morning.  I feed him once at 3am as he wasnt wanting milk on wake up at 1am.
Have persevered with shh/pat which is fine and this is what I end up doing each time he wakes.  It seems to me that he wakes and now needs me to pat him back to sleep each time.  So now what?

Also, his daytime naps are becoming a real battle and only 30 minutes sometimes.
Ive tried helping him through the sleep cycle but he is wide awake and will not go back to sleep - even if we are in the car or pram.
(On Saturday his daytime naps were 1 hour, 45mins, 1.75hours, 45 mins but this made no difference to night time sleep and he hasnt done it again)

please help!

[charlie'smummy]

Hi, thanks that would be brilliant.

Typical routine is as follows:

6.15am awake
A
7am Milk & solids (has only ever had a couple oz to drink)
A
8am-8.45am Nap in cot
A
10.30-11.15am Nap in pram
11.15am Milk (5/6 oz)
A
12pm Solids
A
1pm-1.45pm Nap (in cot or car if out)
A
3pm Milk (6oz)
A
3.45pm - 4.30pm Nap in pram or car
A
5pm Solids
A
6.30pm Bath
6.50pm Milk & Story
7.15pm Sleep  (always put down awake and self settles)

11pm DF (but last couple of nights has woken 10pm)

This is the routine I follow with the same times for Eating.  the naptimes vary slightly depending on how long he sleeps.
The last 3 days his naps have become shorter (3 of 30 mins, and one of 45 mins)

Last night he woke at 10.30pm but didnt want DF, so I gave it to him at 12am when he woke.  Then a feed at 3am.  He woke at 4 & 5am but I left him to grizzle and he went back to sleep again.

Thanks for the advice
Helen 

[charlie'smummy]

I will try to extend his A time to 2 hours.  We got to 1.75 today and he went off to sleep within 10 mins easlily.  His naps today have been 3 x 35mins, 1 x 40 mins.  Last 3 days his total nap time has been 2 hours 20 minutes.  Is he setting his own clock???

I will try to do all naps in the cot, but we go out most lunchtimes to parent/baby activity groups so he tends to nod off in the car.

Ill give it a couple days and get back to you.  I am also trying to sort out his NW so that may have an effect too.

Thanks for the advice
Helen

[charlie'smummy]

I have tried helping with shh/pat but he just wakes up and grins at me!  I have also tried when he sleeps in the pram by rocking him but no good.  He is the same in the car.  Once awake, hes awake.

Nap routine (when in cot) is: 
A time of 1.5 hours, up to bedroom to wind down and read stories for 15 mins.  Put in cot, mobile on, kiss on forehead.  Normally plays for about 10 mins then fusses/grizzles for a minute or two before sleep.  No props.

Should I extend his A time to 1.75 before wind down?

[charlie'smummy]

Ok I will give it a go. Although with the first A time, it is difficult to know what time he actually wakes in the morning.
This morning I went into him at 5.30am and resettled him, then he cried at 6.10am but I dont know if he had been back to sleep or not!
So I watched his sleep cues and went on the basis that he woke at 5.30am as he looked so tired by 7am.  He is now asleep at 7.15am so that is 1 hour 45.

Ill try to keep it consistent for a couple days and get back to you.
thanks again for the advice
helen

[rachaelm0]

Hi
I know this may sound awful but I am so relieved to have found someone with the same problem as I have.  My baby is 14 weeks, was 2 weeks over due and is constantly night waking, sometimes feeding, but not for long, now he often wakes so I pick him up and he falls back to sleep!  My baby is breast fed (on demand) and I have tried to give him both breasts at each feed during the day in the hope that he will go longer at night, but he won't always take both if he's not hungry.  He naturally wakes around 7-7.30am, because I am so tired from the night waking I have resorted to putting him in our bed in the morning just to get a couple more hours sleep!  I am going to start to wean him at 17 weeks in the hope he will sleep better at night, though I am aware that this is not always the case. 

My problem is not just at night but with his naps in the day.  It seems the only way I can get him to nap is if I push him back and forth in his pram, how can I expect the nursery to do this when he starts to go there?  I have tried lying him down in his cot semi-sleepy, but he would just lay there talking to himself and looking around.  Then the sleep time passes and he starts to miss out on his naps. 

It's getting so bad at the moment that it's effecting my relationship with my husband because I feel resentful that I get up in the night while he sleeps (although he works full time and I breast feed our baby). 

I know EXACTLEY what you're going through and I hope you find a cure!  Please let me know if you do!

[charlie'smummy]

Hi Rachaelm0

It's always nice to know that its not just your baby who doesnt sleep/nap!

Just to say that we only started Charlie on solids at 17 weeks on advice from HV as he was starting to want a bottle every 2 hours again.  It made no difference to his NW at all, and sometimes, apparently, it can make them worse if they have tummy ache from the solids!  Charlie is on 3 meals of solids a day, and STILL wants a 7/8oz bottle at 3am!

Also, I sympathise with you about the nap problem.  I have just managed to get him to sleep in the cot without a battle in the last few days.  Before that it was always in the pram or car.
Its not easy when you are out and about a lot but I had a couple of quiet days and left him to whinge and cry a bit and he soon realised that I wasnt going to get him.  I only went into him if he was 'crying properly'.  Now he goes down for a nap and is asleep within 10 mins without a fuss.  I just wish I had persevered with it weeks ago!

I am also trying the same at night, which is more difficult, but only going into him if he is crying continuously or sounds distressed.

I hope you sort out your NW soon as it is exhausting and it does affect your relationship. 

Helen

[mmeears]

Hi Rachel and Helen,

Were our babies separated at birth??!!!! I have an 18 week old (also called Charlie!) and he is exactly the same at night. This week has been terrible - hardly slept at all monday and tuesday night and then last night was up from 3am and eventually brought him into our bed where he grizzled until fell asleep at 6.30am for 45 minutes. Our problem is we have a 5 year old who is at school so we cant leave him to cry at night for fear of waking her up   My only saving grace is that he naps really well in the day time which is probably just as well as I'm so exhausted that I'm not sure what I'd do otherwise! Burst into tears at baby clinic on wednesday as so tired

I was wondering about starting him on solids - he usually has both breasts and then a couple of oz of formula top up at each feed and has 8oz formula dream feed at 11pm but still wakes up hungry anytime from 1am onwards. I just dont get it and dont have a clue where to go from here!!! My gorgeous daughter slept through at 10 weeks and I've done exactly the same with him as I did with her but they couldnt be more different.

If anyone "cracks" it please be sure to let me know!! Thanks!!

[firsttimemummy]

Rachael - my DS was a nightmare to get to sleep during the day (I resorted to walks in every weather,etc) then cuddling him and letting him sleep in my arms... once he got used to sleeping for good lengths of time I started using PUPD (from 4 or 5 months) and putting him in his cot.  He now goes to bed by  me just putting him into his growbag, putting his music on and then placing him in the cot with his dummy and leaving the room.  As a baby he used to scream like mad going to sleep .....

... I never ever thought he would sleep without help but he does now.  You will get there soon enough, with lots of good advice from this forum.  My main problem was probably not recognising when to put him to sleep and rushing in whenever he cried (if cry doesnt escalate or stops and starts then leave them alone to settle themself!!!).

I also started solids at earliest recommendation as he wasnt satisfied with milk and waking lots at that time.  In the past they said 3 months to start weaning so I don't personally see the problem with starting at 4 months.  Baby rice can constipate, but pears are meant to be gentle on their stomach.  Also, DON'T give papaya (despite Annabel Karmel suggesting it) as it is really hard to digest and not good for babies (as I found out the hard way, then got told by my sister who is a nurse not to feed it to children!!!).

DS is breastfed too.  I found DS was waking a lot in night but knew he didn't need milk.  I used to give him water in a bottle and then put him back to sleep.  Every time I give him water at night the following night he sleeps all night!!!  Good luck. 

[rachaelm0]

Hi all
Firstly, charlie'smummy I am really sorry that I 'raided' your thread!  I just thought that our 'issues' were so similar I had to tell you how relieved I was!  After reading lots of threads on here, I decided last night to leave him unless he 'properly cries' or his cry is continuous (he does have different cries for different things).  I've decided he seems to do a lot of 'mantra' crying.  Only once last night did I need to go to him and I decided to try the sshh/pat, PUPD.  I did this twice and he fell asleep on his own!  We'll see how tonight goes though!

mmeears, we feel your pain!  My sister-in-law has a 6 month old and he goes down for naps in the day just fine and has slept through since 17 weeks!  I've since decided that what works for one does not always work for another.  I'm going to persevere with the sshh/pat, PUPD, if that doesn't work after a week or so I think I will try the controlled crying??

firsttimemummy thanks for your post, it gives me hope!  That was my problem too I kept on going into his room as soon as my baby made a noise, mainly hoping he wouldn't wake my husband and wouldn't wake himself up too much.  I am hoping my new tactics will work.  Though I'm concerned about the the baby rice causing constipation.  That's the last thing I need!  My baby had really bad colic from 1 week, then I found the miracle of Infacol!