14.5 mo. 2-1 crazy!!!

[babyboy26]

Hello all!  I have posted on the 2-1 threads, but don't want to hog them.  I am hoping for some help for my little Mikey and this crazy 2-1 transition!!!  I believe he started the transition when he was around 10.5-11mos, as that's when things seemed to get really wonky.  We haven't had much consistency since then.  Things will get consistent for a week or two, then it gets wacky again.  He is a textbook baby for the most part.

Last time we were doing pretty well, he was on about a 4hr A in the am.  We were getting some 2hr naps, and then a 20 or 30m pm nap.  He was sleeping 11-11.5hrs at night with no NWs.  We had an illness, then some teething, so I am trying to get back into some sort of a normal routine, but am having trouble!!!

Here is what the past few days have been like:


Monday
6:30 wake
10:00-11:15 nap 1
2:30-3:55 nap 2 (we do not usually have this kind of pm nap, but with the shorter am nap, it worked out this way)
7:45-7:50 bed  (He was up from 5:55-6:55 chatting and then went back to sleep until 7:50)

Tuesday
7:50 wake
11:20-12:30 nap 1
4:00-4:45 nap 2 (I woke him)
7:45-7:45 bed (He was up from 3:20-3:45 chatting, then again from 5:30-6:15 chatting, back to sleep until 7:45)

Wednesday
7:45 wake
12:05-1:15 nap 1 (we were out and got stuck in some traffic with construction...I did not really intend for A to jump up this much, and think I got an OT nap as he woke really crying and was grumpy for his A
4:00-4:50 nap 2
8:10-6:55 bed (I put him down later for bed thinking that my happy, chatty NWs on Mon & Tue were due to UT for bedtime.  He only had 1 NW, around 1 with just a few minutes of chatting.  This was only a 10hr45m night)  He did wake very happy, though, and was in a great mood all morning.

Thursday (today...so far)
6:55 wake
10:55-12:15 nap 1 (heard him squirm and sigh at 40m, moving to the next cycle, I think.  Woke happy and chatting and played in crib for 20m before I went in to get him.  I'm thinking this was an UT nap???

So, now I don't know how long of a cn to give, and what bedtime should be.  I'm trying to get on track here, but it has been very difficult.  Should I give a 40m cn?  Or less?  What about bedtime?  Should I push the A to 4hr10m tomorrow and see what happens?  Yesterday he had an accidental 4hr20m A, but an OT nap.  Confused mommy!!!

[becky1969]

Wow, things are a bit crazy, aren't they!

I think the first problem is you're trying to give a napping schedule for a 10 month old -- in other words, you're expecting naps to be 1.5-2 hours long.  Actually at this age Nap #1 should be no more than an hour and nap #2 no more than 1.5 hours.  For instance, you said on Thursday that he had an "UT" nap because it was 1h20.  That's an awesome 1st nap of the day!  Like I said 1 hour max is what we expect!

Typically what we advise is to slowly shorten that AM nap while you move it later, keeping PM nap long and around the same time every day.  Then, when AM nap move to around 11:30 we suggest jumping to 1 nap at 11:45 or 12.

In your case it looks like your best night happened on a day you got a 1h15 AM nap and a 1h25 PM nap.  On the other days your PM nap was the shortest, which I think is what is leading to your NWs: He's OT at bedtime.  So, let's limit that AM nap to 1 hour max and then let him sleep as long as he wants in the PM.


Your wakings are all over the place.  First I think I might suggest making 7 am your wake up time so that your naps have a more consistent timing. With a 7 am waking I think I'd go with a 10:30 AM nap (1 hour max).  Waking at 11:30, I wouldn't give him nap #2 until 3, hopefully waking at 4:30.  Then bedtime at 8 pm. 


How does that sound?

[babyboy26]

Thank you for your reply!  Hmmmm... I am not expecting both naps to be long, just one.  We have been working on the 2-1, but back-tracked a bit.  I was actually aiming for a long am/short pm nap.  It just works better for activities that way.  And yes, my wakings are all over the place!  I didn't think the day I had the long pm nap was the best night...as he was up for one hour from 5:55-6:55 chatting, then back to sleep.  I was thinking that this NW was due to UT, since he had 2hr40m of day sleep, and long nap later than usual.  He does not typically take a long pm nap. 

[becky1969]

the long AM nap usually backfires in the long run, as you're finding.  It's better for them to get most of their sleep late in the day.  It's how you avoid both NWs and EWs.

When I look at the routines you posted only one day has a nap longer than 50 minutes in the PM, and that was the day he slept thru the night, and just chatted at around 5/6 AM but went back to sleep.  That's a good night in my book! So I think that long PM nap helped you on that day.

UT at bedtime doesn't normally result in NWs.  Usually what you'll get is a kid who won't go to sleep and protests going to bed.  If they fall asleep at bedtime within a normal amt of time then they're not UT.

[babyboy26]

Oh, I see...what you're saying makes sense, but how do I do this when we have days that we have to be out in the am?  Hard to get home and keep a 3.5 A in the am.

[sherry lynn]

Sorry to say but long NW with Chatting are definitely UT night wakings here. I've helped out a ton of moms also by letting them know that that is the case for us.

With 2h40m of day time sleep for a 14 month old and a last A time of 3 hours, I don't see how he could possibly be OT at bedtime.

I agree that the majority of NW are usually do to OT, but I just don't see how that could be the case here.

I think your LO is very close to making the switch and that's getting too much daytime sleep sometimes with not enough A time before bed. Sometimes when they nap super late in the day and they aren't used to it the later bedtime doesn't always work. I found that my LO had his best nights if he was up from napping by 4.

What is the max amount of A time your LO will do now?

[babyboy26]

I'm not sure, sherry lynn.  We have just gotten back up to 4hrs in the am.

[sherry lynn]

Then that is probably where he's at. And that's ok.

But Becky is right about the nap. You just might not be able to get a 1.5 hour nap at this age with 4 hours A time. 1h20m is a good nap when they are still on 2 naps.

Sorry if I came off strong on my other post. I didn't mean to. I would just be really surprised if he was OT with this routine. Now when they reject one of the naps that's a whole different story. By reading the 2-1 sticky I just really think that sometimes EW and NW are par for the course when they are in the middle of the 2-1 nonsense.

[*Liz*]

Kara - I did the final stages of the 2-1 using a long am/ short pm - as I had no choice as he was refusing the pm nap regardless of the length of the A.

What I will say is that we DID suffer a lot of EWs and NWs through the transition. If we got a pm nap he was UT at bedtime, if we didn't he was OT. I personally think that the short am is the best way if your lo will cooperate but if they won't it can work the other way, but it will be very messy. Unless my experience is skewed by J's spirited nature  .

I had a good month of pure chaos, followed by 3 weeks of holding my nerve on 1 nap, and hoping he would adjust.

I think getting a pm catnap relies on your los willingness to be AP'd down after a too short A to give a sensible A to bedtime. But J would not be AP'd  .

It has worked though, and we are now settling nicely.

[babyboy26]

Thanks, girls!  I tried the short am/long pm nap before, and I never could get a good, consistent pm nap.  Since I could almost always count on my am nap being 1 hr +, I decided to stick with that.  We have just gotten ourselves into a mess after an illness and teething, so I'm hoping it will settle in a few days.  With a 1hr20m am nap, he doesn't usually refuse the pm nap.  I did have some pm nap refusal some days about a month ago when he was taking a 2hr am nap.  I think I'll stick with the 4hr A for another 2 days and see what happens.  I then might try to push that A up a bit.

Today has been crazy, because my dog went psycho when a package was delivered, and woke Mikey up after only 35m of his am nap.  I tried to resettle him, but, as usual, when he sees me, he thinks nap time is over!  So, I had to put him down really early for the pm nap...2:00.  It is now 3:05, and he's still sleeping (thank goodness!!!)  I'm hoping he'll sleep until at least 3:30 or 4:00...I know, wishful thinking!!!  As for bedtime, I don't know what to do because he usually does not have a long pm nap. 

[becky1969]

I think we are just differing on the definition of "UT".  Yes, too much daytime sleep can DEFINITELY result in NWs -- and long awake NWs at that! But that isn't what I call undertired.  That's what I call too much daytime sleep.  I don't know if that's the issue here.  When I look at the routines she's listed, her best day happened with lots of daytime sleep and with the most happening in the PM. 

I call UT when a child isn't tired enough at naptime/bedtime to fall asleep because not enough A.  That causes them to wake earlier than normal.  It might make a child wake an hour or two after going to bed, but it doesn't generally cause them to wake several times in the night.

And absolutely some kids do better with longer AM and shorter PM during the transition.  Those are the rarity tho -- maybe 25%?  And again from the routines she's posted I don't think that is this kid.  Again, the best sleep looks like it happened on the one day he had a longer PM nap.



If it were me, I'd aim to have a longer PM nap for 3 days in a row and see how that affects the nighttime sleep!  I'd also try to keep total daytime sleep at 2.5 hours to hopefully prevent NWs that result from too much daytime sleep.  If that doesn't work, then you can try the opposite! But it seems to me that's what you've been doing -- long AMs/short PMs -- and it's not working.


As for being out and about, it's really tough during the transition and you might have to change your routine for a few weeks or a month.  But my guess is you are super close to 1 nap land.  In fact, you had one day where LO didn't nap until after noon and took over an hour long nap!  That tells me you are probably about a month away max from being able to jump to 1 nap!  So just remind yourself that any outings you have to skip is just temporary -- things will all go back to normal before thanksgiving.


Just my 2 cents! 

[babyboy26]

Ugghhhh....I just typed a loooonnng post and lost it!  

Well, I guess the only way to figure all of this out is to keep trying different things and see what works!  It is all a learning process, isn't it?  

I am so, soooo glad that you all think I am close to one nap...I hope you're right!!!  As for yesterday, he did take a long pm nap, and we got an EW...here's what it looked like:

6:45 wake
10:45-11:20 nap 1 (crazy dog woke him barking like a maniac right next to his room)
2:00-4:00 nap 2 (he woke briefly at 3:15, whined for about 2m, and then back to sleep.  I woke him at 4)
7:55-6:20 bed (I put him down at 7:30, and he took until 7:55 to settle...not crying or whining, just babbling away...this was UT, I'm sure!  No NWs, but we only had a 10hr25m night ,.  I assume this EW is also due to UT???)

So, he actually had the long pm nap yesterday again...kind of accidentally.  I think it was too long, though...maybe I should have only let him sleep 1hr30m or 1hr45m instead.  Like I said...a learning process!!!

Now today, I kept with the 4hrA this am...was this right to do?  I should keep the same A regardless of the wakeup time...right?  


Becky---I will follow your advice on no more than 2.5hrs daytime sleep for sure! 

Liz---when you were going through this, did you have short nights?  Did you keep the morning A the same regardless?

[clazzat]

I'm hesitating to post any advice on this, as I think we are just starting down this path and I don't have the world's best sleeper, but I have had 3 nights in a row where my 14 month old has slept for 12 hours (for the first time in her entire life!), so I thought I would mention that it has coincided with her only having 2 hours' naps during the day - we have previously been on 30 mins AM and 2h+ PM (and nights have been a fairly standard 10.5-11hours).  Maybe worth thinking about keeping daytime sleep to even less than 2.5 hours?  Our good nights have come from 20-25 mins AM and 1h30-45 PM.

[babyboy26]

Uh oh!  I haven't been posting due to a family emergency.  We had to leave M with a family member yesterday, and he did not nap all day!  He fell asleep for 35m in the car on the way home from 4:45 to 5:15.  He then took ages to settle for bed...played in crib until 7:55, I assume because he had that nap so late.  He woke at 6:15 this am.  I am sure that he is OT due to all of this, so my question is....how do I fix it to get back on track?  Do I keep his morning A at 4hrs, or do I shorten it to prevent further OT?

[sherry lynn]

I'm not sure if this is too late, but if you are going to do 2 naps today I would put him down for the first short nap as soon as he seems willing to go down. It will probably be a little earlier than 4 hours. Just watch him like a hawk after about 3 hours A time. I would guess he might be willing to go down after about 3.5.