expert help needed for spirited 11.5 month old going through 2:1

[*Becky*]

Thanks Tasha - hugs back to you too.

Right - I have decided to get serious about getting out of the room for naps. I think we have reached a bit of a crisis point in our house and I have to think of the health and happiness of me and DH as well as our lovely boy. It just seems things are spiralling out of control. We have to be in for every put down and this to me is just not ok. I respect people who want to do it but it is not for us.
Now...I am really going to need some support so do I carry on here or go to pupd board?
I am thinking over the 3 options of GW, WIWO or leaving him for 20 seconds and then going in to soothe but maybe this is CC?
The problem I have is that while we are in the room he is fine, no crying and takes a little while but will go to sleep. If we leave the room at any point in that process he goes wild so not sure wiwo is going to be any good as I can see him getting very annoyed with the in and out bit. That is why I thought of just leaving him for a tiny bit and then going in and repeating???
Any suggestions please. I know he is going to hate it and cry loads but tbh we need to deal with this now, not when he is 2 and I just want to do it in the best way for him but also show him I mean business iykwim. 2 months is a long time to go through this and it needs to stop.

[*Becky*]

the other thing I could do with advice is the early starts. Now I know technically it is not an EW as he has had 11 hours sleep usually but it is early for us!
A week or two ago I found if he woke before 6am I was able to calm him by going to his room and lying down with him. Even if he did not sleep he would be quite calm and we would start the day around 6.30-7am.
The last few days he has been teething I think and very off his food. I am pretty sure he is hungry when he wakes in the am. He always wakes cross but he won't be calmed and it is so horrid. Have you any suggestions for the end of the day and meals. He usually has his tea around 4.30-5pm and then milk at bedtime but he only drinks half if I am lucky. Just need to rule out hunger in the am.
Thanks
bx

[sherry lynn]

I think you are right and he is probably hungry. I'm not surprised because he goes to bed so early.
In my honest opinion I don't think you are going to get later starts with such early bedtimes. I think 11 hours is awesome for him, from everything I've seen over the 2 months.

I am willing to give you support. I can hop over to the props board with you, but they are probably the people to advise you the best on it. When we do wi/wo DS is pretty much hysterical. I think that is part of it for some LO. We would also pause before going in. I think I've heard people wait 30, sec/a min. I don't think that is CC. CC is like 10 min intervals. You want to pause because you want to give it a few sec to see if they will calm down. I would try to do something like walk all the way to the kitchen, put something away, and then come back. Otherwise I found I wanted to go right back in and calm him. Or I'd fold one piece of laundry, something like that. But like I said they will know the proper technique over there.

Let me give you a few links to read.

Let me know when you put up a post and I'll make a link for you, so everybody who is following along can give you support over there too.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63896.0

[*Becky*]

thanks sherry. I completely agree with the early bedtimes but what do I do? His naps are so short I feel I have to do this but am considering just doing a 7pm bedtime and working through it. I HATE putting him to bed early but am stuck. I don't want to always wait for the great nap as he is not a good napper. Any thoughts?

[Mashi]

Instead of pushing bedtime that 30 minutes later all at once, you could add an extra ten minutes on to each A time - ten more before morning nap, 10 more in the afternoon and then 10 more at bedtime. Or, even just ten to the morning for the first couple of days, then ten to the afternoon for the next few days and then ten before bed -- depends how much you think he can take at once.

[sherry lynn]

It is hard to answer because I know he does best on 3h-3h15m of A time.

I also find it hard to answer because I am battling a 5:40 wake up myself    Makes me very unsure of myself to give answers - IYKWIM.

So I'll just tell you what I've done in the past.
In the past I've done just what you suggested. I just stuck to a 7pm bedtime. Usually DS would wake OT at some point in the night.  Usually within the hour of going to bed. But I could get him back to sleep very easily with just a little shh.
It took awhile, but it did change my wake up to after 6am. For us anything after 6 is good. 6:30 is our most consistent best. Sometimes I get later, but that is just every now and then and isn't consistent.

I feel like it's not a very BW answer.

Some moms have had a lot of success with making a set bedtime of your most common bedtime. What maybe 6:30. do that for 3 days no matter what naps are like. Then add 15 min to that. Then 15 min to that, etc. Every 3 days.
That hasn't worked in the past.

I think the just jumping to a later bedtime has worked for Lyle because of something a mom of a spirited baby told me
along time ago: with spirited LO it seems that the A time either has to be just perfect, or they have to be well past the OT stage. As in way past their A time. Not sure if that makes sense to you, or if that is true for Henry. But, I think it is true for Lyle. That's why the trying to increase the 15 by 15 mins over a few weeks for DLS never worked for us. Just 15 min past normal A time is not good for Lyle.

[kayra]

hi Becky,
I agree that the only solution is a later bed time, I'd say just bite the bullet and put him down a bit later event if it's 13+hr day, you might get some early starts initially-though probably not earlier than you're getting now-but eventually he will do his 11-12 hrs bringing wake up time forward. Maybe you could do 15min later every 3 days? Also you might want to give his dinner a bit later, what time does he have lunch? we have lunch around 12.30 then snacks around 4-5 and dinner 6.30ish, and then 5oz milk at bed. If Henry was to eat more later in the evening he probably wouldn't be as hungry in the morning.

with the sleep training 30sec-1 minute will seem long to you when he's crying but it really isn't that long, as Sherry said just walk a way for a bit. I imagine this'll take a bit of time though so don't be discouraged if you have to resettle him various times. He will get the hang of it eventually, i agree with you that it's better to deal with it now than a year later.

all the best!
xx
k

[*Becky*]

yuck - I feel I need to deal with so many issues at the same time.
well tonight he went to bed at 6pm which I know is too early but it was a 3.20 A time from his last nap and I don't want to push much more.
I guess I will have to do 15 min later every 3 days but I still don't see how it will work with bad naps. His A times are pretty long considering the length of the naps.
I think what I will do is set bedtime to 6.30pm whatever as that is the most usual bedtime. Maybe do that for a few days and then every 3 days add 15 mins until we get to 7pm and try and stick there. How does that sound?
Re food - he has lunch around 12pm and tea around 4.30pm. The only reason it is early is I really struggle to get his bedtime milk down. Maybe I should not worry about it so much and just give some milk in a sippy at lunch so he can have a bit then and then  do a snack at 4.30ish and then dinner at 5.30ish. How does that sound? He is being v fussy at the moment just to add to it all so that may be part of the reason for being hungry in the am.
Right - will go to props board. DH is ill now and it is probably not the best time to start but as soon as he is back to normal we will have a go. Hate it hate it hate it. I know he will scream his heart out.
bx

[londonmama]

Hi again.  Sounds like you're having a tough time - we're having a good week, but it will definitely go belly up at some point!  We have a very spirited (when it comes to sleep) little guy who is so so prone to OT and so sensitive to A times.  Anyways....

We keep getting stuck in the early bedtime, early start spiral (he was asleep at 6:15 tonight....grrr) due to bad naps.  What I have been doing to try to combat this is to push the first A very hard because he seems to handle longer As and OT better in the AM.  That way even if the PM nap is bad (which is always is!), we are a little bit closer to bedtime.  I can't push the final A time at all because he will NW due to OT.  It has to be less than 3 hrs, pretty much.

Not sure if that would work for you, but if you're getting short naps anyway maybe it can't hurt to just push the AM a bit?!  Don't want to confuse things for you though as you're already getting such good advice!

[*Becky*]

thanks. I def think it is worth a try. He does also like a shorter A time before bed and a longer one in the am so maybe that is the way to go. I have to get past 6am as we have 5-6am starts at the mo and it is getting v stressful. 5am today but 11 hours sleep so not much i can do. So hard as he is not getting enough sleep but i cannot make him nap better. Will see how he is today and if he can handle the longer a time but if not i may do 3 naps to get him caught up a bit and a later bedtime. would you mind posting your routine with meals etc so i can have a look. thanks x
mashi and sherry lynn - hat would you guys do..............need to get the mornings sorted asap. bx

[Mashi]

Well, with the time change, 5am is still 6 am to his body.  It makes it harder to deal with the clocks changing when you're already getting EWs and working to combat them, I know....but that part I would say you have to be patient with. It takes a little bit to get biorhythms sorted out -- I know myself I still woke up today at 6 instead of 7 and DH and I were well ready for bed by 930 last night!    But, at the same time, it won't happen on its own and you will have to do some routine shifting ... just saying that it isn't always super easy and can take a bit to get there.

I can't remember with all of the changes and updates where you are at the moment with naps and things. How about where you were BEFORE the clocks changed?

Aside from the clock difference, and just with me taking a guess at where you are, here is what I would aim for:

6am wake
nap 1 945/1000 for 45 minutes
nap 2 215/230 for hopefully 1.5 hours
bed 630

is that close to what you were at before the clocks changed?  if so, then it's just a matter of shifting bit by bit every few days. not too much at once or you'll get into OT cycle again. let me know if that routine looks appx close.

also, i have just noticed on your new pros thread that the need to stay in the bedroom with him is ONLY at naps, not at bedtime...i missed this somehow in this thread, sorry for not noticing that part, but i think if that is the case then it's most likely a routine issue - as you've said he goes down for bed easily and i think you have it nailed with the A time he needs before bed, so he's quite willing to settle on his own. not settling on his own ONLY for naps, to me says that it is a timing issue most of all. 

[MummyToBen]

Hi Becky,

Just thought I would post what we're doing as my lo is the same age as yours (and also spirited and teething!)

A - Wake around 6.30, but somtimes anywhere after 5.55am

E - Breakfast - porridge with banana, bowl of oatibix/shredded wheat with fruit and yoghurt etc

S - 3.5 hours after waking, or 3.25 if he woke early/seems extra tired.  I always allow 10 minutes to drop off in his cot - particularly at the moment when he often needs more comforting because of his teeth.  

I wake him anywhere between 35 and 55 minutes depending on how early his wake up was - but he is always up by 10.30 so that I know there is time for a decent A time and pm nap.  

E - snack at 11ish to keep him going til lunch

E - lunch at 12.15 - 12.30ish - he eats alot at lunch time!

S - He goes to sleep about 3.5-3.75 hours after waking - so normally around 2o'clock
......hopefully sleeps for 1.5-2 hours (but quite often will do 1.25 hours - depending on first nap/teething I think).  I decide what time to put him down depending on his earlier nap and his daytime wake-up that day...sometimes I get it just 'right' other times I realise I left him a bit too long.  

E - snack when he wakes - oatcake and raisins, or piece of toast, or a few small chuncks of cheese with some raisins

E - dinner at 5.45 - 6ish (always start an hour before bedtime - so earlier if he's having an early night).  

Bath, bottle in his room - quietly and with lights off (210ml - his only formula in the day now), Bed

S - aim for 7, but will sometimes brought forward to 6.30 or 6.45 if he napped badly in the afternoon.  I aim for 3 hours minimum A time, 3.75 maximum.  But I will guage this on the day as a whole, and how he seems to be.  

He pretty much always STTN now, but we occasionally have a wake up between 5 and 5.30 if he is OT.  On these days we leave him as long as we can in his cot, but then i'll give him a longer nap (say 55 mins) to try and make up for some of missed sleep - rather than giving him a ridiculously early night.

I hope that might help to see what someone else is doing.  Obviously there is some variation in my days - but I think that's what  has helped us to get him relatively consistent with his wake-ups as I'm always slightly altering his naps depending on his sleep needs on that particular day.  This has also got us out of the early-bedtime (and therefore early wake-ups!) every night habit!!  

Hugs

Claire x

[*Becky*]

thanks Claire. I still don't see how I get a later bedtime so a later am if he will not nap in the pm. Do you see what I mean. I am losing the plot slightly as I am just clutching at straws tbh. I think he needs to go to bed around 7pm as he usually sleeps around 11 hours at night,he can do more but usually when he has had a good nap day which is not very often.
Mashi - I am going to let him nap for as long as he wants this am as he was awake early and I also want to get to a decent bedtime even if that means a later pm nap.
Until I can start the day at a reasonable time I don't see how I am going to crack this because he does not nap for 1.5 hours in the pm, he just won't and I am fed up with waiting for the amazing day when he will.
I sort of feel I need to set a bedtime and a first nap time but am scared to do it. I think it would mean a 3 nap day to get started which kind of feels wrong.
Why oh why can he not nap??
So what should I do? Lengthen A times maybe?
I think re food I need to make tea later which will prob mean he will totally refuse bedtime milk. Aaaaaaghhhhhh!
DH has flu now to top it all off.
I still have faith though and I need to keep at it. I cannot give in to this as so many people have success with BW. Why not me?

[MummyToBen]

Becky - I don't think you're not having 'success' and everyone else is!  Our days are still very hit and miss - I don't think I've read of many people on these boards who had a smooth routine at this age - it always sounds like people had some early wakings, poor naps etc - think it just goes with the territory of 2:1, teething, getting ill, and becoming more aware of their world and how to control it!!  I've also not met many people in real life - even those who've done CIO/CC etc - who don't have similar issues - if not a lot more!!  I think the BW way just helps us to do this WITH our babies, rather than just doing something TO them!

I totally see what you mean about the early nights and early mornings, and I think 11 hours is pretty average for this age - Ben rarely takes much more - and I don't think it will increase til he's on one nap.  Mashi and Sherry are giving such great advice so please take what I say with a pinch of salt as I don't want to confuse things ( but we did a fair bit of 3 naps a day - just to help Ben get to a 7pm bedtime.  So often we would be driving around at 5.50ish (coat over his carseat to make it dark, dummy in  ) to try and get him to take 10 minutes!!  He would go to bed much better for just having those 40 winks.  It was very stressful though as often he wouldn't take it and then we would have to still do the early bedtime - and I could sometimes feel frustrated with him  ...so I think it's good not to really bank on them taking this nap in case it doesn't happen!! 

BUT, I think that helped us shift everything back a little bit, and then I started working on getting his daytime naps better.  I have found for us, really shortening that morning nap has made all the difference - and on days when he has 35 minutes and then a 3.5 A time, he generally takes a much better nap.  Previously when he was on 55 mins morning nap, we would normally only get a 1 hour or 1hr 10 minute nap - I also thought we were destined to have them forever!  but since shortening those morning naps it seems that he's got more used to taking a longer pm one.  BUT, I don't give him a really short nap if he had a really early morning - so it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation sometimes!

I really wouldn't worry to much about him taking lots of milk at bedtime at this age.  If he is eating plenty of solids then he shouldn't be hungry in the morning anyway if he's eating late enough.  I know it's hard when they're teething because they're not eating great - so some of it might be experimenting with your timings, and also giving him more of his favourite foods at bedtime (saving other stuff for lunch!) so that he is more likely to eat.  Anything with protein (eggs, cheese, meat) will keep them feeling full for longer so it's good to give them a good portion with their dinnertime meal.  I think we give our dinner too late and too close to Ben's milk, as most people seem to leave a larger gap - so maybe aim for 5.30pm for dinner, for a 7pm bedtime?

I hope you have a better day....I sometimes find it helps me to stay sane when I realise there are lots of other people having similar struggles as me - so when I hear Ben chatting into the monitor after he's woken up at 1hr10 mins (when he really needed 1hr75!) that it's not actually the end of the world - but just one of those things  !!   

Claire x

[LucySol]

Hi Becky.just dropping in and sending you ((hugs))).This has been going a while for you now and i can see it must be getting you down.
One thing i just wanted to say was i think at some point i had to just accept that my DD was a baby with low sleep needs and was NOT going to sleep for hours like other babies do.i have spent soooo long messing with A times and just getting nowhere and now months later i have accepted that she is who she is and all i can do is offer the chance to sleep and hope she sleeps the amount she needs.i dont get long delicious naps like others i am lucky if i get 1.5 hrs.BUT,she is a happy girl and she STTN so it must be just what she needs.

i think like you said you just need to get your day pushed along a bit but i would do it slowly and it might take a few weeks but be patient...you will get there.He is not waking thru the night,yes he wakes early but that is just a timing issue.
BW IS working for you...you just need things shifting a bit!!

once i got this into my head i stopped wanting MORE and hadnt set myself up for failure when i didnt get it.

hth,Lucy xx