expert help needed for spirited 11.5 month old going through 2:1

[Mashi]

It is weird that he was OT for that nap as he just took ages to go to sleep and was sitting up, lying down. No crying...

I didn't say that he WAS for sure OT, just that is what I suspected. But you only put times nothing else. If you don't think he was OT based on his behaviour than I would go with what you think not with what I said!

Minimum give things 3 days to work, up to 5 sometimes

[*Becky*]

well I am just like you and I ALWAYS think OT. I still do tbh but I have to try something new for our sanity. Ok - well five days will be end of Sat so will carry on doing the same and see.

[londonmama]

Hi Becky.  Just to let you know what we've been doing the last 3 days.  I've done 55 min nap in the AM rather than 35 (think he got OT on the weekend).  1st day I had to do the PM nap in the buggy.  30 mins then screaming...not good.  2nd day, 55 in the AM then 3 hrs 20 A time then 1 hour nap in the PM (woke happy).  3rd day (today) I did 55 min AM then 3 hrs 45 A time and he slept 1.5 hours!!  Am sure it is a one off, but I am perservering with the 55 min AM nap because he doesn't seem to be refusing the PM nap (just usually doesn't sleep long).  If the PM nap starts getting too late or refused, I will cut AM shorter but TBH my problem usually is - like you - about trying to get to a decent bedtime rather than 6:00 pm.

Ugh - just as I was typing this he woke 2.5 hours after bedtime screaming.  Usually means OT at bedtime, but how is that possible after such a good PM nap??

Like always, just when I get a good nap day, I am going to screw it up tomorrow by going out!  Will have to do AM nap in the buggy.  Need to be disciplined and leave in time to get home for PM nap, but I always lose track of time and end up rushing around.

Hope you have a good night!

[sherry lynn]

Londonmama - if you lose track of time just do the PM nap in the buggy too   He'll be ok with one day like that. I just wanted to tell you I really doubt he was OT. As Lyle got older we started getting those wake ups after bedtime a lot more for UT rather than OT. I would say around 9/10 months that started happening. He had such a great day, I really don't see how he would have been OT. Hopefully it was just a blip and you'll get a good night and wake up

Becky - something like that might work for you. It would at least help stretch the day out. I think those long A times are probably the key after that nap. Maybe when you let him sleep in the morning you just haven't been doing a long enough A time. If nothing else it will help stretch your day out. I'm sure I've told you before but 35 min naps really mean UT here. IT took me months and months and months to figure that out.

[*Becky*]

ok so what A times do people suggest?
So...he slept really well till 4am when he woke crying hard. Gave pain meds and he slept till 6.25am!
Now I know the EW could have been OT but the fact he went back for a full 2 hours....what do you think?
bx

[MummyToBen]

`I don't *know* what the early wake up was - but when they're teething it is apparently common for them to wake sometimes as they are coming into lighter sleep.  I might be that?  But the fact he went back down til almost 6.30 is surely something to celebrate??!!

That means that for a couple of days your days have been starting alot later - and I think that each day that happens you are getting more of a chance to establish a more suitable routine for him  .  

In terms of A times I can only tell you what is now working for us.  It has taken a few weeks of tweaking (we were having 5am wake ups and short pm naps/early nights for AGES while I was figuring it all out  ), and is now pretty stable.  Ben is now waking between 6.15 and 6.30, and I keep him up for about 3.5 hours.  then he has a 35 min catnap and he is then up for 3.5-3.75 hours (but I don't think you should stretch yours out past 3.5 in one go - maybe over a couple of days), and I let him nap for 1.75 hours max.  So then he has around 3.5 hours til bed.  7pm bedtime - no later, and I really try to drag this out unless he's had an awful day.  I now know that if we want a much later wake-up time we are going to have to start putting him to bed a bit later...but I think we've decided we like having our long evenings so are going to leave it as it is. 

I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks as I hope I'm not giving wrong advice 
Claire x

[londonmama]

Hi!  Becky we had a pretty long NW at 2:00 as well, but I think teething here.  Teeth #7 & 8 are about to break through on the top.  We then got a 7:00 wake up - woo hoo!! 

Right now for A times I am doing:
First A - 3 hr 55 min (yes, seriously...I am trying to be that precise!)
First nap - wake at 55 mins, but if in the buggy and only 30 mins (he often only sleeps 30 mins in buggy) shorten next A time
Second A - 3 hr 40 (after 55 min nap) or anywhere from 2 hr 30 after 30 min nap (will have to just watch him to see)
Second nap - Hopefully at home and hopefully long!  Anything from 1 hr + would be good.
Last A - Wondering if I need to push this longer.  Yesterday was 3 hr 20 min and he was suspiciously perky at 2:00 am (woke up crying, wedged in cot, but then seemed to be quite happy to chat away..though cried when I left the room...hmmmm)

Re: A times, you ended up with a 1 hr nap yesterday afternoon right?  Did he wake happy?  Maybe stick with the 35 AM and then stretch the PM A time by 10 or 15 mins to see if you can get a bit longer than 1 hour?  TBH, we have many days with a total of only 1.5 hrs daytime sleep (over 2 naps), really anything over 2 hrs for the whole day is a very good day.

[*Becky*]

yes we will try for 3.5 first A although sometimes this is his best .e. longest so maybe 3.45. The next I am so unsure of after a short nap but going to aim for 3.15ish. He never ever wakes happy from naps so hard to tell that way.
I am def going to stick with 35 min am no more as he was so hard to put down when he had more and we never got good naps so will carry on with this for a bit.
bx

[Mashi]

Becky, a couple of other thoughts for you if you are still struggling with that afternoon nap..both of these are tactics I had to used consistently for a month or so to get DS to sleep well in the afternoons.

I did W2S **EVERY** nap for about a month.  I had to sit in his room to watch when he fell asleep and check the time that he closed his eyes, because I needed to tiptoe in and touch his face, just until he flinched, at 22 minutes. I can not for the life of me remember how I figured out that it had to be at 22 minutes (probably a mom's desperation) but if it was 20min or 24 min then it didn't work.  Had to be 22!  Like I said, it did take a while of doing this to set his sleep cycles and it was a TOTAL pain to have to go back in after I just got him to sleep, but it was worth it.

The other thing that I did was go into his room 5 minutes or so before I knew he was going to wake up, and sit next to his cot and shhh.  Just like when he was a newborn.  Shhhd him through the 45-55 minute period when he was vulnerable to a wake-up. If he started stirring then I would pat him gently....again just like when he was a newborn.  And, again this was absolute torture as it meant that I got very very little time to myself because the whole time he was sleeping it seemed I was next to his cot keeping him asleep. But, in the long run what was best for both he and I was that he slept...and if I needed to shhh him through to keep him asleep then it was worth it.  Even today, I know know know that he is going to wake at 1hr20min, def OT for him, and I can't have that, DH is away for a few days, I am at my wits end with DS (teething, hugely into 2-1, OT, clock change, noisy neighbours....all have caused chaos happening at the same time). As much as I desperately need a break this morning I am going to go into his room at 1hr10minutes and sit there as long as I need to in order to keep DS asleep until he passes the "hump."

Anyway, just thought that if you are still looking beyond the possibility that this is OT or UT then they may be things you want to try.

[sherry lynn]

Becky - after hearing about your wake up I agree with keeping to the 35 min nap. I might be wrong, but I think he is getting back on track from those days that you had the 1 hour nap in the morning. I think even if he only has an hour nap in the afternoon it is better for him than those 30-35 min am naps you get in the PM if you let him nap in the morning.

I hope things continue to turn around for you.

[*Becky*]

thanks guys.
I will let you know how the day goes after the dreaded pm nap!!!
bx

[*Becky*]

so this is today.
Awake 6.25am
Sleep - 10.15-10.50am

Sleep - 2.10-3.10pm

Sleep for bed 6.30pm

I just can't get the second nap to lengthen - so frustrating. I know I should prob stretch the A time but weirdly he has gone from giving no cues to giving really obvious ones i.e. today after 2.5 hours he was rubbing his eyes loads. Once he was in bed though we had lots of sit ups where I had to lie him down. Hmmm. Confused. If he is fine on that day sleep then I am not going to stress too much even though I KNOW it is very low but  if the nights get worse then I may have to do something.

Feels good to be sticking to something though.
Mashi - thanks for the advice re W2S etc. I may have to try that.
Any thoughts from you ladies?
bx

[kayra]

i wonder if he should maybe go down a bit earlier for his second nap? I gave my DS 3h20 A time after a 50 min am nap, so maybe after a 35 min nap, he isn't rested enough to go much more, hence the sleepy cues?? His sitting up etc is confusing, but that could be OT, it needn't necessarily be UT. But then I always lean towards OT .....

[londonmama]

I think you've done so well!  Wake up from nap at 3:10 is getting closer to a normal bedtime.  1 hr 35 mins for day sleep is low-ish, but not crazy (from my house anyway!).  Could you try extending that middle A time by literally 5 minutes each day?  For us it seems that a 60 min nap is a tiny bit UT, so 5 or 10 minutes extra might lengthen it a bit.

It seems to get to bedtime around 7:00, you need to either push him a bit longer in the morning or push the middle A or a bit of both, because you can't guarantee a longer nap will sort it out for you (same here....long naps are few and far between).  But I would just try to hold on to what you've got for a few days, because 6:30-ish wake up is pretty good, no?  I can count on 2 hands the number of times my DS has woken up in the 7:00s, so I've resigned myself to 6:00 or 6:30 being a good day.

Hope you have a good night and a repeat - or better! - tomorrow.

[*Becky*]

Kayra - I am going to try your plan today as am pretty sure this boy is not UT.
Woke at 5.15am today so apart from yesterday I have not noticed an improvement in the am time. Yesterday was due to a NW so he slept longer to catch up I guess.
I just can't see that this is going to work now. He is getting less sleep than ever and looks tired, acts cranky etc. I know there are teeth issues which does not help.
I am going to try the same thing today as I did say I would stick with it for 5 days but obviously he will need 3 naps today.
I cannot tell you how despondent and fed up I am that he just will not take a nap longer than an hour/1.10 AND his wake ups are so early. It is putting a huge strain on this family. I will see how today and tomorrow go and then I may have to try something different.