expert help needed for spirited 11.5 month old going through 2:1

[*Becky*]

Mashi - ok great. I am working tomorrow unfortunately but DH looks after DS then so I will leave out many notes (poor guy) and then fill you in when I get back. He is very up to speed anyway and does what I tell him with regards to DS sleep - well trained

Mummy to Ben - thanks. Yes we have certainly had our fair share of issues shall we say since he was born but I do enjoy some time with him every day, just not much when it comes to sleep He is an amazing boy and so full of life and energy. The hardest bit is all the crying that is going on at the moment. Too much crying from him equals lots from me!!! x

[A pair of Charlies]

I'll do the happy dance for you    You resettled a nap that you thought was going to be impossible. Well done you. 

[sherry lynn]

Wow!! What great advice you are getting. Mashi - thanks for taking the time to type all that out. I have received a few "talks" like that during my rougher periods, and I know Charlotte has too. It's so important to remember the perspective like Mummytoben said. The only thing I have to add is that you are doing all the "right" things. They aren't robots to be "programmed" It's so hard to remember that sometimes.

They do go through rough times. Please, please don't stress so much about having to stay there. We've had several periods like that. The latest for us was the transition to the big boy bed. That caused major major issues, one of the main ones SA issues because he didn't have that secure snug feeling of his bed anymore. For once I didn't freak out about it because I knew we would get through it. And we've had our setbacks for sure. But this is the second night in a row where we have gone back to being able to just walk out of his room.

As long as we keep a BW perspective of wanting the goal of independent sleep we will get there. We have tools and know what to do, and it's on our minds every time we put them to bed. Sometimes they will need a little more help and it's ok to give it to them. He's been an independent sleeper before, he will be again.

Does he have his first year molars yet?

[*Becky*]

thanks Sherry. No he does not have the molars yet. We actually had a good night last night which was great. Bed at 6pm and he slept till 5.45am. I only heard him rustle about a bit so phew. We are finding that every morning regardless of good night or not he wakes crying and carries on once I get him up until I take him downstairs. I cannot remember the last time he just woke up and babbled a bit. I guess he just wants to get on with the day.
Teeth could be an issue I guess - it is different teething behaviour if so but I guess different teeth can do this.
I appreciate all your help - in my defence I never think he is a robot to be programmed. We have probably had 10 smooth days i.e. 10 days of 2 x good naps in his whole life so it is hard sometimes to not get despondent and feel that I am doing something wrong that's all.
I am going to aim for 3.5 A time this am with 45 min nap. If anyone thinks I should do something different please shout - thanks!
bx

[Mashi]

Hooray for the amazing night -- almost 12 full hours of sleep is AWESOME!!!! 

Saying that, I *know* that 545 is a hard one to take.  I remember those days too well.  But, if you get these naps on track for a couple of days, and have things sorted through the day, then we can start pushing the day ahead in small chunks at a time. Just telling you this now so that you can see that you are making amazing progress, and that by taking one thing at a time you can get past all of the chaos rather than trying to tackle too many things at once.

For the record, my DS screamed, shouted and cried every morning when he woke up as well, until about 12, 13 ish months.  Maybe it's only been more recently, even, I can't remember.  Now he just shouts "Ah! Ah!" in this "Hey you!" tone that's a wee bit angry but at the same time funny.  So, perhaps your LO will just grow into it one day, too!

Also, I found that teething behaviour changed as he got older and cut different teeth. The first two bottom ones were much different to the way he is behaving now, with cutting his canines and one year molars.  So just because it's not the same, doesn't mean it's not teeth. And, to give you some hope....with DS's second incisors (ie the teeth beside the two fronts) he needed LOADS more sleep in the day, I think his day went from needing 2h15min of day sleep to needing nearly 3h of naps plus he tacked an extra 30 minutes onto his night.  And it wasn't just for a few days, more like 2-3 weeks! Another reason to not get too stuck on A times, because sometimes you have to watch them.  My DS is currently on a routine more suitable for a 9 month old rather than a 15 month old, and it's because he's cutting 4 canines and 2 molars right now, and he just needs that extra sleep (this week has been a 1hr am nap, a 1.5-2hr pm nap and (gulp) a 13.5 hour night!!!)

As for whether you should do something different, no, I think you are working towards something good right now, and we will see how today goes...look forward to hearing how your DH got on with things today and hope it all goes smoothly for him!
 

[*Becky*]

thanks Mashi!!!!

[*Becky*]

ok - not at work as DH is exhausted and can't leave him with DS at a time like this so...
Tried for 3.5 hours A time and finally got him to sleep after 4 hours A time. My feeling this am was that he may have been UT. He was not as frantic as yesterday and I did actually leave the room once I put him down. He shouted and then cried but then stopped and just kept on repeating. Then it went up a level and I had to go in and there was a lot of lying him back down until eventually he fell asleep. if he wakes after 30 mins I will be v confused. However I have not managed to put him down for one nap in the last 5 days without crying so it is so hard to know what to aim for. Usually I do wait for a cue in the am but recently he has given cues and then still been hard to get down so today I just stuck to the 3.5.
I will wake him at 10.30am if he has not woken before. Am thinking somewhere between 3-3.5 A time but will obviously watch him.
bx

[*Becky*]

woke after 35 mins again.
Next nap I will medicate just in case this is pain related.
Going to aim for 3 hours max for next sleep by also look for cues - what do you think?
bx

[*Becky*]

so this is today so far...would really appreciate some expert BW help girls as this is just not working.
Awake 5.45am
S - tried to put down at 9.15am- fell alseep at 9.45am - awake at 10.25am

S - tried to put down at 1.25pm - fell asleep at 2pm.

What am I doing wrong? Am I getting A times completely wrong? I gave him pain meds in case of teeth.

I am having to do put down as he just sits up. If I stay in the room he does not cry but it is taking ages for him to go to sleep and as DH said it is almost like we have to take him up half an hour before he needs to sleep as it takes that long for him to drop off.

Is he now v UT do you think? We have had no tired signs all day BUT they are not always reliable anyway and I know he was cross when he woke from that first nap.

Please send me some positive vibes - this is horrid.

bx

[Mashi]

I'll have another think Becky, read through this post again and am going to go back through your probs from last month or so so that I can remember what you've already been through and tried, see if ANYTHING different jumps out at me.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that your DH is perhaps right in some instance, for example this afternoon I would have attempted to have him asleep at 3h of A time, not just taking him to bed at 3h of A time.  But I am not positive that would have worked, just what I would have tried if it were me.

Will be back on here later, have to get DS in a bit and get dinner started, but am also going to go through my old EASY book and see if I can spot anything. Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you

[MummyToBen]

Hi there...

Yes, I wonder if that would be a good plan trying to start putting him down a while before you want him to actually be 'asleep'.  Ben nearly always shuffles around, cries a bit, talks, yells, rolls, crawls, stands, jumps  for 20 or so minutes before he drops off to sleep...regardless of how long his A time has been.  We have found that factoring this into his A time has meant that he *normally* is asleep vaguely within the timeframe we want, rather than 20 minutes or more later.  I just keep going in and turning him over, lying him back down etc, until he finally settles - no talking/eye contact, and I leave it a good few minutes each time so that he has chance to start settling without me.  He's got a lovey and a dummy (still!) which help him to settle. 
We've found that when we don;t do this, he seems to get 'hyper' the longer the shuffling/rolling/jumping goes on, as he gets OT, and we often have a 30 min nap when that happens. 

I really think it's just trial and error though. 

Just one thought too, we struggled with Ben's naps for months until we got him on some appropriate meds for his acid reflux (turns out he was in pain which is why he would never nap for long and was so hard to settle) - have you ruled out everything like that which may be causing probs? 

((hugs))

[*Becky*]

thanks both of you. Well he woke after 45 mins and I managed to resettle him for another 45 so at least we got a halfway decent nap.
He did have a few reflux/colic issues when he was younger but no signs of it now I don't think...well apart from bad naps.
I really this this am he may have been UT when I took him up but then maybe a bit OT by the pm nap - maybe???/ who knows.
bx

[Mashi]

Popping on and off while I cook dinner!

I think that if he woke at 45 then it could have very likely have been UT but he resettled easily so if so, then only barely UT iykwim.  I would still use that amount of time for your A time after a 30 minute morning nap as your best guide - perhaps he could have used some more physical play at play time to tire him out a bit more? 

[*Becky*]

bedtime when - aagh...
thinking 6.30pm as was up 5.45 and he is on the shorter side for last A of the day. Have to factor in the get down though. 6.15pm up for 6.30pm bed....

[sherry lynn]

Becky - my gut is really saying that he is closer to the 2-1 switch than we all think.

I think he was UT for both naps.

For a long long time I was convinced that 35 min was OT because he woke so cranky. But after months and months of going through the same kind of stuff you are going through right now I realized he was UT.

I think he had an AWESOME night sleep last night and he was refreshed.

However, sticking to the 3.5 A time will give you some insight into that.

I think the PM nap was terrific for your LO. He rarely does 1.5 right, and he did that, even though you had to resettle. That's great.

I didn't mean to offend you when I said the robot comment. I know you don't think he is a robot, but most of us BW moms kind of get this idea in our head of what is supposed to be. And we just kind of get stuck in that, when it is just so much more complicated than that most of the time.

We say, he's supposed to go down at 3.5 for you, so when he doesn't you feel like a failure. But, he had a great night last night and that changes things.

The fact that he slept so well last night makes me think he really isn't as OT as we seem to think he is. That he is coping well, even though he is fighting you for naps.

At this exact age we went through the same exact issue.

Some moms truly solved it by jumping to 1 nap. I knew Lyle couldn't handle that. But sometimes it ended up being that way anyways because he would COMPLETELY refuse the first nap, or second nap. He didn't just fight and cry he completely refused to sleep. I would spend and hour + trying to get him down. And then have to turn around feed him lunch and then go through it all again. Not a fun time. When I would finally get him down I would just cry and cry because I knew he was going to wake at 1h10m OT and that would be it for the entire day. Then I would have to do an early bedtime, and then he would wake early the next day. It was a never ending cycle. The only good thing about that is I would be more likely to get 2 naps the next day. And I always felt the same way. "Why can't I read him right, why do I keep getting the A time wrong" When in fact, he just doesn't sleep as well as some LO. But he sleeps better than other spirited LOs. So it could be worse

That is when another mom of a spirited LO offered the idea of the 20 min first nap. It wasn't a perfect solution for us, but it worked better than having 1h10m of sleep for the entire day.

I'm not saying this is what you have to do. I'm just saying I think you are a lot closer to the 2-1 switch then we thought and that is what I think is going on with all this craziness. I don't think it is you at all. I don't think it is you reading him wrong, etc.

I think even if 3.5 worked today, it might not tomorrow.

I don't think putting him into bed at 3 hours A time in the morning is going to work. I think he is going to scream and holler at you and be one made little boy.

I hope you have a great night. I think today was a success, even though it doesn't feel that way right now. I think you should pat yourself on the back for putting him to bed last night when he needed it. If your gut tells you he was UT today and he has a great night tonight and you think he needs to be upped a little bit, do it. But don't let him sleep 1h10m like he used to. Cut the nap.
I am worried for you that because he slept so well today that the night might not go quite as well. But I hope I'm wrong That just seems to be his pattern.

Anyways, I'm blabbing. Good luck.