expert help needed for spirited 11.5 month old going through 2:1

[*Becky*]

aah sherry thanks for all the support and of course I was not offended, not at all. I actually think you are so right on this. This am I am so sure he was UT when I put him down for his first nap. The crying was different even, he just sounded annoyed with me more than anything. I think if he has had a good night sleep he can do 4 hours A time first thing.
The second nap was weird as again he did not seem tired but he did get very hyper just before I put him down and I thought he might be getting a little OT?
Yes the day has been pretty good really and without wanting to sound negative I think you are right about the night. Fingers crossed.
So..as much as I want to set naps to try and help regulate him I am not sure if I can as the A times in the day do depend on the quality of the night sleep in some ways.
He went down to sleep perfectly tonight which was lovely and after 2.45 A time. Seems short I know and I don't altogether trust it but he seems to do better with a short A time before bed. When he was doing a catnap still at 9 months he would only do 1.15 max between that and bed which seems very weird but he did well on it. The only other thing I have a ? over at the moment is whether his teeth are bothering him.
I will def not let him sleep more than 45 mins in the am and if that ends up being too much we can cut down to 30 mins right?
Thanks again to everyone who contributes to try and help us out. I think there is so so much going on at the moment. He is always frustrated and cross quite a bit of the time and it is because he is growing up and just wants to do so much more than he is quite able to.
bx

[sherry lynn]

Good luck with the night. If he wakes I would give him some pain meds. We got all 4 canines and 4 1st molars at the same time and it took me quite a while to realize that he was teething because it just seemed to be taking SOOO long. Then it become obvious and I felt so bad because he was getting 8 at the same time. That was a rough patch for us as well Our pattern is we have a few good weeks and then things seem to change and I can't figure out what it is. I feel like I'm always behind on what he seems to "need" at that exact time. It's frustrating. But at least we try to figure it out right.

That low last A time is what will throw us off going to the 30 min nap. So I've got my fingers crossed for an awesome night so that we can try to have a repeat tomorrow

[*Becky*]

Yes I am not sure the low A time is right but it seems to be what he needs/wants at the moment. I do need to push it out a bit but his wake up time is so early. Oh well deal with that in a bit. x

[Mashi]

I really think Sherry has lots of great advice, and as she says now that you have had that fantastic night last night, he seems to be rested and that can change a lot of things!   The morning nap, yes, 45 minutes for now - if you cut too much too soon it can be a nightmare, but if 45 minutes is not enough you can always cut it lower.  I don't think that cutting to 30 minutes right now is the answer!  

I have gone through my notes from this age and what we were doing is pretty similar to what you are aiming for right now

Wake - 630 ( I still don't know what wake up time you go by? Sorry.)
Nap 1 1000ish for 45 minutes
Nap 2 215/230ish for 1hr30 - 1hr45min
Bed 715ish

I would not discount teething being a huge problem with his NWs and if you can at least get some consistency with his naps and know that he is getting a decent amount of sleep in the day (2 hours ish) and a reasonable bed, reasonable wake - then I would be pretty sure that teeth and SA are playing more of a part in it than you think. One thing to remember with giving him pain meds before bed is that paracetamol takes anywhere from 30-45 minutes to "kick in" so if you are giving it to him right before bed then he's likely not feeling it. I always did it right out of the bath so that there was time for it to start working before he went to bed. And, I kept the bonjela and the calpol on his dresser so that if (when) he woke at night, I didn't have to keep him awake and get him worked up looking for it.

Have just gone to post and see Sherry's next msg -- yes, my DS did the same with loads of teeth.  Think I've got a Couch post somewhere 'cause it was just taking sooooooooooooooooo long. I think I noticed them starting at the end of June/early July and it wasn't until the end of flippin' August before they cut. And that was only four. And they were only incisors. The canines that started swelling under his gums at the same time are STILL just sitting there waiting to pop through and his molars are nearing the surface.  It took me a long time to realise that it was teeth because nothing was happening.  

When you say about set nap times, I disagree that you can't move to them now. With set nap times the idea isn't to stick to a rigid time, but to stay close to a time within reason. I managed to get our morning nap to 930am and have kept it there for many months now, but that does NOT mean that he gets taken to his room when the clock strikes.  I keep my eye on him, and the clock, and I judge by both. I always say his nap is at 930 but on days when he is tired he may go down at 920, on days when he's not it may be 940...and set nap times helped me a LOT.  DS was unpredictable with his A times and set morning nap took away a lot of that frustration for me. So don't give up hope on that idea YET, but at least give yourself some time with getting things sorted in your head right now first.  

Take small victories where you get them -- get a decent morning nap sorted and a consistent wake up time (even if it is too early, at least take a victory in the consistency of it...cause if it is consistent then you can move it ahead over time!) and then you will at least feel lots better about the first half of your day! Once you have those going well for a few days then you can start seeing what activity level/a time is giving you what nap times for his afternoon nap.  KWIM?

Another thing I was wondering, is he close to walking yet? Cruising on furniture, and so on?  Developmental leaps like that can also play a big deal in sleep - they want to practice rather than sleep, they can wake up standing in their cot and not realise how to get down, etc. And, I found that because DS was making physical advancements, it meant that he needed to have ACTIVE awake time. I chased him up the stairs, around the house, soooo much physical activity - and he would nap well. On days when I didn't, he took shorter naps or fought going down.  Even now we take him out for a good hour long walk (with him walking, not in buggy) at EACH of his awake times or he just won't sleep! Anyway, just more things for you to think about and try out!!

PS - ok, just saw your latest post...yes, it seems like a low A time but you have summed it up by saying that it seems to be what he likes best/wants/needs - and that's the key! if it works, don't change it. when it stops working, then change it!

[*Liz*]

Hey Becky - this was the tough point in the 2-1 for us as well - 45 min catnap was too long, 30 min too short, and then often he would just refuse and go to bed after 6hrs plus A. Followed by a lovely EW, which was then enough to get me 2 naps in on that day. Later wake-up meant pm nap refusal and round and round we went for quite a while.

At your los age there is NO WAY J would have gone back to sleep after 3hrs A, and only 3.5hrs A after a bad night. J seems similar to your lo in that he always did a shorter pm A - seemed to like to use his mornings for creating general chaos!!

I'm pretty sure we were on 4hrs A at that age minimum, and moving towards 4.5hrs.

Only thing is I was doing a long am nap as J refused pm naps even after 30 min naps. And I also felt that once I had pushed the am nap soo far I couldn't just shorten the A and bring it back again. So there was never enough time to get a decent pm nap in even if I cut it right down. It is about set times and biorrhythms as Mashi says - and if you allowed that am A to get very long it is hard to go back again.

One thing I will say though is despite J doing a lower A at the end of the day we haven't really had any major issues since going to one nap. Did require a few weeks of riding it out to set the new routine, but he now does 5 hrs either side of the nap with no real issues.

Perhaps the reason for the short pm A is just about total daytime sleep - he has failed to sleep all day, then manages to catch a bit of sleep that he NEEDED, but is still tired at bedtime as he got so tired during the day failing to sleep iyswin?

[*Becky*]

ah you girls are great - so much of what you say makes sense. Yes teeth are part of it I think. I can see the canines under the gum and there could be others I guess. SA is def there a little and I find that when he is teething he gets very clingy anyway. He is cruising everywhere and is just SO on the go.
I think if we can try to get 2 hours of day sleep as a goal that would be great.
I think tomorrow I will make 4 hours the target but be prepared to take him up sooner if needed and I will def wake after 45 mins.
It would be such a dream to get on some kind of predictable routine - fingers crossed it will happen.
bx

[Mashi]

Perhaps the reason for the short pm A is just about total daytime sleep - he has failed to sleep all day, then manages to catch a bit of sleep that he NEEDED, but is still tired at bedtime as he got so tired during the day failing to sleep iyswin?

I think this is a good point as well - the fact that he is doing a short A before bed makes sense, because he's taking a long "full" awake time before his first nap, and again in the afternoon. If he were to do another long one before bed, well, there are just not enough hours in the day for that.  My DS does a very short A time before his first nap (up at 7am back in bed at 930) but we do a long A time before bed (4.5 hours) -- so same as yours, just swapped times. So don't be thinking that he needs to have a long A time before bed....if it's working how it is then that's great!

[*Becky*]

ok really am going to work today but updating before I go.
Slept really well - heard him at 3.30am but it was not a real cry, it was more of a mantra trying to get himself back to sleep. Then awake for good at 5am and crying. I went in and almost immediately he went back to sleep until 7am. I did stay with him though. The way I see it is that t is not ideal at all but we just cannot start the day at 5am. I find it hard enough to get to a decent bedtime as it is.
I guess good although very odd and now naps will have to be pushed right back. I just don't think he will go down after 3.5 hours this am but we will see. Aim for 3.5/4 I guess.

[Mashi]

I think by the sounds of it your NWs really are a combo of teeth and perhaps some SA. I did a lot of early mornings staying with DS during this phase - the 6am wakes and I shhed and patted or cuddled, lied on his floor and so on, until 7am. Some days he went back to sleep, other days he didn't - but I don't think I adjusted naps TOO much based on that waking, once we had a decent nap routine. Some days were different....3.5 hours or 4 hours, I didn't stress too much about which it was, especially for morning, where you want a short nap anyway. Get that decent 45 minute morning nap in and then just keep an eye on him for afternoon A time - 4 hours is prob a good starting point but do not be afraid to adjust from there. If you can get a 1.5 hour afternoon nap in then you're laughing!!!

Glad you had a good night, I know there was a NW but there's nothing you can do when it's teeth - and remember, he WILL get back to independent sleep, he's just going through a phase at the moment where he needs some extra comfort. x

[*Becky*]

Hi,
Just updating with our day.
So....
Up at 7am (after quick resettling at 5am)
S - up at 10.35am asleep at 10.45am - DH woke him at 11.30am

S- DH took him up at 2.40pm and he was asleep by 2.55pm - 3.40pm. DH tried to resettle and he slept on and off till 4.15pm.

Bedtime at 6.20pm  (was showing tired signs)

DH feels that the am nap was pretty good in that he did not take that long to fall asleep and was not crying and only sat up a couple of times. Strangely he was yawning at 9am - sigh.

The pm one took longer.

So are we thinking UT?

Advice please ladies....as I prepare to get into the bed at 5am for the 4th am in a row!!!

bx

[Mashi]

Hi,
Just updating with our day.
So....
Up at 7am (after quick resettling at 5am)

I think that is a great night! I know you still see one NW and I know and remember how hard it is to get up that early, fortunately for me it was summer time and not as bad as when it is cold and dark.  I do still suspect teeth and SA.  But, have you ruled out temperature?  I know that at about 4am/5am ish, your body is supposed to have dropped to quite cool, it is a prime time to wake up if you are too hot. At the same time, because your body does drop in temperature around then it is also a prime time to wake up if you are too cold ...  it's a hard time of the year because the temperature is not constant but it is just something to think about or keep in mind in your quest to find why he is waking.

Resettling and sleeping until 7am is awesome!!

S - up at 10.35am asleep at 10.45am - DH woke him at 11.30am

Perfect!

S- DH took him up at 2.40pm and he was asleep by 2.55pm - 3.40pm. DH tried to resettle and he slept on and off till 4.15pm.

Looks good!  Yes initially a 45 minute nap but he went down easily enough, maybe he could have taken him up 5-10 minutes later? Or perhaps more activity during activity time? That was a big factor for my DS, I think I already suggested that one...a good few "physical" sessions, when he was crawling it was up the stairs with me chasing him so DS laughing his head off going as fast as he could (then carry him back down and go again!) and things like that. I truly tired him out for his naps! Or, maybe aim to tack an extra 10 minutes or so on to this A time is another option.

DH feels that the am nap was pretty good in that he did not take that long to fall asleep and was not crying and only sat up a couple of times. Strangely he was yawning at 9am - sigh.

The pm one took longer.

So are we thinking UT?

To be honest, I am thinking that it's all looking very very good and that there isn't a whole lot to improve.  Good night sleep, good morning nap, decent afternoon nap and easy to bed.  I think I may have pushed bed to 7pm as he was up at 7am this morning, but if he was tired and went to sleep, then you know best not me!   Yes, he had a short NW and no, his afternoon nap wasn't perfect but no baby is! I think just keep your eye on that afternoon A time and adjust it as needed each day. Some days he may be shattered and want to go down at 3hr45 min and other days he may be up for 4 hours.  I don't count that as inconsistent or erratic, I think that it's normal and based on activity level and different factors like that.

Advice please ladies....as I prepare to get into the bed at 5am for the 4th am in a row!!!

Wake to sleep may be worth a try...but if it doesn't work then you will have gotten out of bed twice.  You could try going to him at 4ish and seeing if you can re-set his sleep cycle (FWIW I would try that for his afternoon nap as well, you've got nothing to lose - nap times I tiptoed in at 22 minutes and gently touched his cheek until he flinched). But for his 5am waking that would prob only work if it is habitual, but at the same time, it may be enough. Depends on your tolerance for getting out of bed at 4am and then again at 5am if it doesn't work. 

x

[*Liz*]

I think UT as well Becky - so I guess the best option is to try a 30 min am nap instead - and find the A from there instead. Otherwise your pm nap is going to get super late.

But I went the other route through the back end of the transition - so Sherry and Mashi will be better at this one.

[*Becky*]

Thanks ladies. I will repeat with the 45 min tomorrow and then lengthen the second A slightly I think just by 10 mins or so. Will update you tomorrow.
Just out of interest - how will I get him to wake later in the am???

[Mashi]

I just think it is a big jump to cut to 30 minutes after just a few days of trying 45min....and that afternoon nap can be pushed 10-15 minutes later, and that still only puts it at say 300ish - 430ish. He's going to bed at 620, but woke at 700, so pushing the afternoon nap 15 minutes later would be worst case scenario of pushing bedtime 15 - 30 minutes later. Which gives a great 12 hour day!

[Mashi]

Just out of interest - how will I get him to wake later in the am???

Later than 700 you mean?  I would stick to what you have at the moment, and after 3 - 5 days of things going predictably, then we can start pushing the entire day in small increments!