Sooo frusterated!

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

I am soooo frusterated with DS! I cannot get him to sleep at night at all and I just do not understand what is going on. I think now he is teething to add to the mixture but this has been going on for almost three months and I am not sure how much more I can handle (although I am not sure I have a choice!). DS cannot get past 45 minutes of sleep. He wakes up everytime for no apparent reason and I have to do PU/PD or shh/pat to get him back to sleep. He uses a pacifier sometimes but does not really seem to like it that much. He is 6 months old in a few days. He is breast and formula feed. His schedule is:

wake and BF at 7
Solids at 8
Nap at 9:30-11 (shh/pat at 45 min sometimes I cannot get him to go down again)
Bottle 6oz  at 11
Nap at 1:30-3 (shh/pat at 45 min sometimes I cannot get him to go down again)
Bottle 7oz at 3
Around 5 will sometimes have 35 min catnap
5:45 Solids
Bottle around 7ish 8oz
Bed between 7 and 7:30
No dream feed he has never taken it.

THEN he wakes up every 45 minutes all night long..........I don't know how much longer I can do this for!!! I dont know if anyone has any more ideas, it just does not make sense to me.....

[Tweakster]

Hi there, hang in there!  How frequent are the short naps...are his naps normally 45 min day to day?  If so it sounds like he's OT.  The waking all night sounds like he's unsettled.  What does your routine look like when he short naps?  He needs the CN even if his naps are 1.5 hours because the long stretch at the end of the day of 4 or 4.5 hours is too long at 6 months old and bound to cause OT. 

Teething causes major chaos, we just had a whole month of it at 6 months sad to say.  Finn is 7 months now and the whitecap has just finally appeared under the gum, soon to make its way down and start the process again *sigh*.  It seems to be a loooong process.  Do you offer pain meds when you are sure he is teething?  Sometimes ibuprofen or paracetamol/acetaminophen will help them sleep better. 

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

When I can only get him to sleep for 45 min, he will NOT sleep for me again until the next nap time on the schedule above. Its like he thinks he is re-energized and ready to go for another 3 hours! Sometime I cannot get him to catnap in the late evening (like I try for an hour to get him to go to bed and by then it is 5:45-6pm and its supper and bath time). The catnap is the only time I have a problem getting him to sleep. Usually he will fall asleep on his own. I put him down in his crib and he fusses himself to sleep. Usually I have to go in once pat his back like three times and then he is out, but he definately will wake 45 min later to the minute! I have not given him anything for teething. I am totally freaked out about giving him pain meds...I guess I need to get over this. He just always falls asleep fine within like ten min of me putting him down so it doesn't seem like he is in that much pain. Also since he has been doing this for three months, I am not convinced the sleeping part has anything to do with teething??? I totally think he is overtired but no matter what I do, I cannot get past that 45 min mark. It seems like I get one 1.5 hours nap out of him with resettling at 45 min and then one 45 min nap. I just do not know how to change this at all.
Thank you for your response. By the way, Finn is super cute!

[brenda2]

Any props?  We had wakings like this with dd1 at 5 mo when she was addicted to the paci.

Could be OT too though with nws like that and no long naps on the day to make up th sleep.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, if there are no props as pp suggests then the key for independent sleepers is the correct routine & A time.  They know how to get to sleep on their own so the hard part is done; it's just finding the A time that will get them tired enough to sleep through 2 cycles.  I would try pushing the morning A slightly, say 10 or so minutes like 2 hr 40 and see what happens then.  You say he's going down ok and going off to sleep on his own so he's tired, but not quite tired enough.

If he only does a 45 min nap and you can't extend then you need to reduce the following A time, or he will indeed end up OT.  Doubtful he would be able to continue at 2 hr 30 or more on short naps.  Then add in the NW and yes a big OT cycle.  You may need to clean up the OT before extending his A time.  Teething also usually causes a reduction in A time so sometimes you just need to step back from EASY and follow cues until they get over the worst of it. 

Re: pain meds - I agree; I hate giving them too but at times they have really helped and have done no harm.  It's certainly a personal choice but maybe worth a discussion with your paed if you think he is genuinely in some discomfort from the teeth.

About the CN, some days we are doing the CN quite late (he only does 30 mins) and then we push bedtime out a little if need be.  Like we CN him at 5:30 - 6 and then we will follow his cues to bedtime, usually he's only good for an hour or so after the CN anyway. 

We had the same problems between months 3 - 6, basically short naps started out as developmental but then progressed to being an issue with the A time.  He had a huge jump in A time between 5 - 6 months and I didn't catch on until he was in an OT cycle.  Got help on the EASY board and now we are getting better naps when the A time is spot on.  It's just really a spot on thing for a lot of LO's - 5 mins one way or the other can spell disaster. 

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Thank you so much for your ideas. I don't think there is a prop issue as he barely takes the paci and he goes to sleep on his own without nursing or rocking. I think I will try to extend his A time. It does seem to get into a ridiculous cycle when he gets OT. Hopefully increasing his A time will help. Last night he did sleep for two hours in a row!!! I feel so refreshed! Hopefully he is starting to get out of this cycle.

His teething is really bothering him today so I might give him something tonight if he is still being bothered. Do you ever give pain meds during the day or just wait for night? I talked to my dr. about his sleeping problems and she told me to give him Tylenol to help him sleep when he gets int bad routines... This does not seem right to me??? I can understand when he is teething to give him meds to help with pain but just to help him sleep??

With the cat nap, aren't they supposed to out grow it around 6 months? So do I just read his cues to see if he needs it that day? Obviously with him being so OT he will probably be needing it to catch up on missed sleep.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, I tried as much as possible not to give anything during the day, other than Camilia (by Boiron) or Hylands - both homeopathic remedies and used distraction and some rocking (bad AP habit!). 

When things were at their worst with several NW - I gave Tylenol in the mornings following so that his naps would stay intact.  And then I used Motrin at night.  One night we even gave Tylenol at bedtime and then topped up with Motrin when he woke 4 hours later. 

I think it's a case of you knowing your LO best...if you know they are having an unusually fussy day without explanation, it's probably teething and doesn't hurt to try to rule it out.  I would not just use it willy nilly on bad routine days...not sure what your doc was getting at there.  I don't find the meds to make him sleepy unless he was already tired and it relieved the discomfort preventing him from sleeping IYSWIM?

They are starting to grow out of the CN but unfortunately until their A time increases to a level that can facilitate this, you are often stuck with it in some form.  Some mums reduce the length, others offer it every other day to keep OT at bay and some LO's keep it until 8 or 9 months. 

Personally I use cues more than anything because I know him fairly well (or so I like to think lol) so I know when he's going to get OT.  If his naps were long and ran later than normal in the afternoon I might just try to push through to bedtime with some lower key A time.  With Finn I know that he pretty much STTN even when OT - he just wakes early.  If he's waking during the night, there's a reason.

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Okay, that sounds good to me. I am not sure what the doc was getting at either. I like to stay away from meds as much as possible. But I do agree to give them if he is really in distress. I was worried that if I gave him anything during the day, it was going to knock him out cold for four hours! I have some teething tablets so maybe I will try those during the day and then some tylenol at night if he needs it.  He is napping right now. He slept for 45 min and I was able to resettle him so hopefully he will have a good day and night! What you are saying about the catnap makes sense to me. Thanks for clarifiying it! I will just keep reading his cues to see what he needs. Right now I think he just needs as much sleep as possible to get away from being OT.

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Yesterday Ethan had a great day with naps (or at least I thought so). He was awake for 2hr40min then slept for 45 min. I resettled him and then he slept for another hour. He then ate and played for another 2hr and 40 min. I put him down for his nap and he slepf two hours without waking up!!! He has never done this!!! When he woke up, it was 4:30 so I did not give him a catnap. He went to bed just after 7pm. He fell asleep right away but then he woke up 30 min later and was WIDE awake. We could not get him to go back to sleep until 9:45!!! Then he woke up all night long every 45 min but he was wide awake each time. I don't understand after having such a good day, how his night could be so bad!  I did give him tylenol when he woke the first time at night as he was crying and seemed to be in pain from his teeth. Should i continue encouraging such long naps when the night was so bad after? I guess I should give it a few more days and not expect a miracle overnight.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, can you post the day in EAS with the wake and nap times.  Let's try to get to the bottom of it. 

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Okay so yesterday went like this...

Wake 7:30 then
E: breast and 4 oz bottle
8:15 Solids
A: 8:30-10:15
S:10:15-12 wake at 45 min resettle
E:breast and 6oz bottle
Solids at 12:45
A: until 2:40
S: 2:40- 4:35 without waking
E: breast and 6oz bottle
Solids at 5:30
A: bathtime, stories until 6:40
E: breast and 7oz bottle
S: asleep by 7

then.... wake at 7:30 until 9:45, gave tylenol at 7:30, when he went back to sleep he then woke every 45 min until 4:30am when he had breast, then woke every 45 min until 7:15

So far today he has

Wake 7:15
E: breast and 4 oz bottle
Solids at 8:00
A: until 10:00
Sleeping right now..... (it is 10:20 my time)

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

continued...
S:10:00 - 11:30 resettle at 45 min
E: breast and 6oz bottle
Solids at 12:15
A: until 2:10
S:2:15-3:30
E: breast and 6oz bottle
A:until 5:25
Catnap 5:25-5:50
Solids at 6pm
A: bath, massage, books
E: breast and 7oz bottle
S: asleep by 7:10

We shall see how the night goes....

[ryates71]

Hi Jenn,

Just two thoughts on your 45 min naps/sleep cycle:

1) Have you tried W2S?  or pre-empting the 45 cycle and going in and patting him through to the next sleep cycle?  Just wondering if encouraging him to carry on without fully waking might help break the habit.

2) When you say "resettle" what does that involve?  Could it be that you are holding too long and this has become a prop for your LO?  This was my downfall.  Someone else described it to me this way - you are picking them up to comfort them - NOT to settle them.  So pick up only for a few seconds, then put them right back down - even if they are crying.  Now that I am no longer the prop for my LO I find pu/pd too stimulating so I try to get in there asap and resettle him with shh/pat.

What do you think?
Rachel

[Jenn+Ethan+Emily]

Hi Rachel

I have never tried to help him into his next sleep cycle without him waking up. That is a great idea! I will definately try that out today. I never did W2S because I thought it was more for habitutal wakign in nights but I guess in a sense he is habitual waking every 45 min? How do I do wake to sleep if he only sleeps for 45 min? Or do you think if I start going in during nap times and trying to help him into the next sleep cycle without him waking it might help with nights?  Also when I say resettle, all I do is go and pat his back and sometimes move him back onto his side. I rarely pick him up. DS does not really cry which I am so lucky for. He has always been more just fussing when he wakes but if I leave him too long without going in, then he gets mad nad harder to put back to sleep? Can this have become a prop? Thanks so much for replying to me.

Also last night was a disaster again! He still woke every 45 min the whole night through. So frusterated and I think we are both really tired!

[Tweakster]

Hi there, it *could* be that his short napping is still developmental or he needs a reset but I think it's likely more routine related.

You can try W2S as pp suggests, it is for naps, have a look here because there are 2 ways to do it and you can decide which will work better for your LO:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

Sleep begets sleep so in theory his better naps should help with the NW.