Author Topic: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!  (Read 1838 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sarah, Mom of 4

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 10
  • Location:
3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« on: October 22, 2009, 14:50:51 pm »
My DD is 3.5 months old and has just recently started to wake frequently at night.  In the past week and a half I have started her on the 3 hour EASY routine.  She has been doing great during the day and has started to take 1.5 hour naps in her crib.  I normally have to wake her up.  She has to share the room with her 8 year old sister.  I can normally get her to sleep with the shush pat method during the day BUT at night time she has been wanting the pacifier.  She is my 4th child and the only one to ever take the pacifier, so that aspect is new to me.  She has loved the pacifier ever since she was born!  She is almost exclusively breast-feed, she will get an occasional bottle of formula during the evening or outings in the car.  Before starting EASY I was doing a lot of accidental parenting that was developing a lot of bad habits for her and leaving me frustrated.  Like I said the day is great BUT the night is not.  Although this mornings' 1st nap she slept 45 mintues and I have had to go back in the get her back to sleep with the pacifier and patting but she     keeps waking up, is not settling down to finish her nap.  Within the past week and a half she has had 2 nights of really good sleep, only getting up 2 times and needing to feed.  Our bedtime routine consists of bath, jammies, feed (breast or bottle, sometimes both) quiet time with Mom and Dad, then up to bed around 7:30 or 8.  With having 3 older children sometimes the bedtime routine will get off track, especially is DH is working late.  I do not do a DF because I feel that if she needs to eat at night she will wake up for it PLUS I am normally in bed myself around 9:30 pr 10.  I am also not sure how to do a DF, do you get baby out of bed and feed?  Burp?  How much to feed them?  Anyway,  this past week she has woken up at 10:30 or 11:30 (last night DD woke at 12:35 tried to give her the pacifier but she kept popping it out and wanting in back in, would not settle with it, I even tried shush pat wit it.  Ended up feeding her at 1:30 on one side, she needed the pacifier and slept until 5, needed to eat one side{this was a good night}).  Would not settle with shush pat or pacifier and would feed her.  From them on she has typically woken up every 2 maybe 3 hours.  Sometimes taking the pacifier and falling back to sleep other times needing to eat.  I will feed her as a last resort unless I know for sure she is hungry.  She will wake up around 7 or 7:30.  this morning I let her sleep until 8 and I had to wake her up... figured it was ok since she went down for the night at 9 last night.
I have 2 thoughts with the frequent NWs:  1.  she is not eating enough during the day  2.  she is using the pacifier as a prop at night and sometimes during the day.  Although I am not sure that the pacifier is a prop right now because she does not always need it to fall asleep, at least during the day and sometimes at night.
Concerning her eating:  she is a very quick nurser!  She will nurse for 5 to 7 minutes of each side, if I am lucky.  Sometimes it is shorter and other times longer.  She does not like to nurse if her hunger is satisfied ...  when this happens she seems to want to make up those calories at night.  She will even sometimes refuse to nurse for the evening feed.  That is when she will get a bottle.  Yesterday, I pumped 1/2 hour before she was to BF.  BF her when it was time to feed and then feed her what I pumped from the bottle...so she ate the 3.5 to 5 oz that I pumped plus whatever she was got when she BF.  Thought this might help increase my milk supply if it was low and she was not getting enough during the day and also to see how much she was actually eating.  I do this again today.
She is not having any developmental milestones.  She does not get any cereal or solid food, to young yet.  A time is typically 45 minutes or longer, it depends on how long she takes to eat.  She has interactive time with me or dad or a sibling, independent play on the floor, on the toy mat, or her bouncy seat.  I also am only giving her the pacifier for naps, night time, and in the car when needed for comfort or sleep.
Hope  i have included enough helpful information, I tried to be thorough.  Any help and suggestions are welcomed!

Thank you and God Bless.

Sarah, Mom of 4



Offline ~Sara~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 264
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9268
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 15:25:22 pm »
Hi Sarah (lovely name ;))!

Kudos to you for your hard work on getting your DD on a routine!  A couple of things you might want to try, though:

1) Developmentally, at 3.5 months, most babies can stay awake for 1h20-1h30, up to 1h45-2h by 4 months.  The A time includes everything from when they wake up to when they go down (so, it includes E time, too).  If your little one is only getting 45 minutes of A time, then her NWs are probably due to her body trying to make up for that time at night.  And no amount of shh/patting or paci reinsertion will make her go back to sleep before her body gets in that A time.  I'd really try and push those A times by 15 minutes if you can; or 5-10 minutes if your LO gets OT easily...this should give her good naps during the day and good sleep at night.

2) Related to extending her A times, most babies are naturally making their way to a 4h EASY in the 3rd month.  Many reach the 4h EASY by 4 months--at least with being able to stay awake.  Some bf babies can't quite go 3.5h or 4h in between feeds at this point, compared to formula fed babies.  And that's completely okay! :)  Some moms do a "top off" before nap time, so their routine looks like EAEAS (I'd make that 2nd A something short like a diaper change, a book, a song...something that will keep your LO from feeding to sleep).  For more ideas on helping your LO with those extending the Es, you might want to try the breastfeeding board (the ladies there are full of great advice and ideas).

Here's a link that I think will help you a lot to help your LO transition to the 4h EASY; it's outlined in 5 minute intervals:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0

Personally, my LO needed BIG jumps in A time for it to make any difference.  So, when we were transitioning him, we did two jumps: first one from 1.5h A time to 1.75h, then the second to 2h.  You'll have to see what works best for your LO, because you don't want her to be OT from it all.  It's a fine balance of gently increasing.
*formerly tersaseda*

 




Offline Sarah, Mom of 4

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 10
  • Location:
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 15:31:29 pm »
Thank you Sara!

Ok,  I guess her A time is actually 1.5 hours since it includes feeding.  When she does her frequent NWs  she is tired all day long but I still make her stay up 1.25 to 1.5 hours of A time.  That way she does not get too much sleep during the day and then want to make up that missed A time during the night.  I will check out the link for transitioning to the 4 hour EASY.

Thanks

Sarah

Offline ~Sara~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 264
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9268
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 17:14:19 pm »
Okay, that helps clarify things! :D  Going back and re-reading your post with that information in mind...

Re: the DF.  Some people don't do it...I think it's your choice and you know your LO best!  It sounds like you'd be able to recognize very quickly if she was starting to consume more and more calories at night thereby disrupting her daytime eating habits.  So, as long as you don't mind her waking every now and then to feed her (should only be once, max twice a night if it's hunger, with a quick resettle (like 5-10 mins)), you could keep things as they are.

If you would like to implement a DF, I've found that giving a bottle works best.  I tried DFing with a breastfeed, and DS just fell asleep even faster and wouldn't suck--totally counterproductive.  You actually don't wake up your LO to do a DF, nor do you burp them (unless you feel you really need to--most are so relaxed bc they're sleeping that they don't need it).  Yes, you get them out of bed for the DF.  I have a chair that I sit in right next to DS's crib, but have also taken him into another room (didn't work too well, tbh).  You want to treat the DF like a full feed, which is why it normally happens a few hours after their last (bedtime) feed.  For example, my DS is on a 4h eating schedule.  If he gets his bedtime bottle at 7, then I do the DF at 11 and fix him what he normally eats during the day.

When she wakes up at night, what is she acting like?  Is she crying a tired cry or a pain cry (does your LO have reflux)?  Is she babbling or cooing?  Grunting (like passing gas)?

It still could be that she needs more A time.  I'm not saying this with 100% certainty, but you might just try it.  At 3.5 months, DS was up to at least 1.5h.  You know your baby best though and see how she handles this.  Out of curiosity, do you know her temperament (angel, textbook, etc.)?  That might give further insight :)

How are naps during the day?  You mentioned how the first one was, but how are the rest?  Do you think you could post what yesterday looked like in the EAS format (it's just easier to read through and spot things)?

The reason I ask about her naps is that they can be indicative of her A time needs as well.  What might be happening is that her first A time is too short, so she wakes up at 45 min (at the end of a sleep cycle), and feels rested enough to be up again and won't go back to sleep.  This is an UT or undertired nap.

From here, what then can happen is that it goes into an OT (overtired) cycle...she stays up too longer after that first nap and then has OT naps for the rest of the day, and the OT exhibits itself in the night.  And then it starts all over again the next day...

If her A time actually is just right for her, then something to consider is really tackling those naps and work on extending them.  For the first 3 months, LOs are working on their night sleep; but from months 3-6, they're working on their day sleep.  This is when most nap problems appear.  Have you tried any preemptive nap extending methods (like wake to sleep, holding through the jolts, shield eyes, darkening room)?  What does your naptime wind down routine look like?

Sooo, let's see where we can go from here! :)
*formerly tersaseda*

 




Offline Sarah, Mom of 4

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 10
  • Location:
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 17:58:57 pm »
When she wakes up at night she cries.  I do not let her cry too long because I do not want her 8 yr old sister to have a terrible nights sleep as well.  I will have to pay attention to it tonight.  But, it is a cry that tells me she needs something.  It is not her pain cry, she does not grunt or coo or talk.... 

Yesterday looked like this:
7am- wake up & eat
8:50 nap with pacifier
9:45 woke up on own
10 feed, not a very long drank 1.5 oz breast milk from bottle
11- nap with pacifier
12:30 pumped
1 woke her up
1:15 BF both sides plus the 4.5 oz from bottle that I pumped at 12:30
2:40 nap with pacifier
3:40 pumped
4:10 woke her up
4:15 BF both sides plus 3.5 oz from bottle that I pumped at 3:40
5:40 tried to put down for nap...did not take to it so we did more A time
6:18 catnap with pacifier and patting (took 15 minutes to do and normally only takes 5 maybe 10 minutes)
7:00 woke up on her own
7:15 nursed very little
7:30 bath and jammies
8:00 3 oz of breast milk from bottle
9:00 sleep with pacifier (took about 30 minutes... pacifier came out a couple of times and she wanted it back)
12:35 woke up crying, gave her the pacifier and patted back to get to go back to sleep ... restless sleep with pacifier and if it cam out she cried for it and was searching for it with her mouth.  She also tries to put it back in with hands without success.  THis went on for an hour until I nursed her
1:30 bf one side and put back in crib ... with pacifier
4:50 woke up crying-  BF one side and laid down in crib with pacifier
8 am woke her up!!!

She has been taking 1.5 hour naps, just this morning it was a 45 minute one.  But, with all the night waking I am sure that she is just starting out the day OT and then I keep waking her up to feed her so she gets enough to eat during the day.  THen she is still not fully rested.  I have not tried any preemptive nap extending methods.  Wind down nap routine consists of going up to her room holding her close and telling her that it is time to sleep.  Swaddling her, holding her over the shoulder and patting and sometimes shushing her until I feel she is beginning to relax.  THis does not take very long a few minutes.  THen I lay her down and normally continue to shush and pat her until I feel she is asleep well (typically about 5 minutes).  The blind in the room is pulled so it is relatively dark and when I leave I close the door.
I have not been able to pinpoint her temperament BUT based on the descriptions in Tracy's book The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems, she is a little of each.  Although I do not believe that she is a grumpy baby.  Perhaps more touchy and textbook/angel.  She probably would have been more textbook/angel if I hadn't let the accidental parenting go soooo long.  She is our last baby and I just wanted to enjoy her all the time.  Now I am paying for it.  When she was 6  weeks old she was sleeping 5-6 hours her first stretch at night and then every 3 and sometimes 4 hours after that.  We traveled Labor day weekend and seems like ever since then and schooling starting for my older kids things have just gotten worse for her. 

Offline Sarah, Mom of 4

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 10
  • Location:
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 19:49:52 pm »
Well, I just took the baby whisperer temperament quiz and based on the quiz she primarily textbook with some angel qualities.  So, perhaps my accidental parenting has messed her up a little and now that I am doing the EASY routine she will settle back down.  Along with good nap and bedtimes routines!

Offline ~Sara~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 264
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9268
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 02:57:31 am »
Hi Sarah!  Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you.  Please forgive me :(  No excuse really (except that my Mommy Brain took over and I forgot)...so let's see!

Do you think she might be hitting her 4 month growth spurt a bit early since she's all of a sudden started waking at night?  I can't say that it explains the restlessness, but it could explain wanting to eat so much (if in fact you really think she's hungry at those NWs).  How have the past couple of nights been?  If she stops waking at night within, oh 5 day max, then I think this was just a growth spurt :)  You could also reintroduce the cluster feeding and see if that helps???  (see pages 115-119 in Tracy's TBWSAYP)

Buuuut, if not...

Have you considered weaning the pacifier?  Has she shown any interest in sucking on her hands/fingers?  If so, do you think she'd be able to do that to self-soothe?  That might help get rid of those unnecessary NWs (and short naps??) if she can get herself back to sleep.

If she normally takes 1.5h naps, that's pretty good! Especially if she wakes up happy from them.

She also might be ready to move to a 3.5h (or longer) EASY.  In TBWSAYP, you'll find a nifty guide on pages 229-230.

Quote (selected)
But, with all the night waking I am sure that she is just starting out the day OT and then I keep waking her up to feed her so she gets enough to eat during the day.  THen she is still not fully rested.
If you think she's starting the day OT, then scale back on that first A time.  I saw that she had a 1h50 A time at 7...does she normally do a 1h50 A time??  If she's OT, try 1h30.  If her nap goes shorter, then you know she was UT, and you could increase it again.

Also, try to get her on a 12 hour day routine.  Even putting your LO to bed one hour later can lead to them being OT at night.

I mean, it sounds like her naps are generally good (1.5 hours isn't bad at all!), she eats well, but her nights stink (like you've shown)...try seeing if it's her 4 month GS, then try shooting for the 12h day routine first and see what happens.  Then, if you don't see any improvements in her nights after a couple more days (even with the 1.5h-2h naps), consider the paci weaning??  Then, if none of that seems to fix it, let's go back to the drawing board.

Maybe someone else will see something and post some tips...I'm sorry that I'm not more of a help, but let's just chip away at this bit by bit. :)

Keep the updates coming--or feel free to shoot me a PM anytime (I'm always on ::)).
*formerly tersaseda*

 




Offline Sarah, Mom of 4

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 10
  • Location:
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 16:26:06 pm »
Hi Sara
Thanks for the advice.  I have been trying to get her on a 12/12 routine.  But, I have not been having that great of success.  It seems like whenever I try to put her down for the night on the 12 hour routine she fights going to sleep and it can take me up to an hour or more to get her to sleep.  She seems to have 2 good nights of sleep and then 2 nights of a lot of night wakings.   But, they seem to correlate with  the binkie.  Good night without it and a lot of nws with the binkie.  So, I am really going to try to wean her from it.  I just have to stick with it.  It seems that I give in during the wee hours of the morning when I just need her to sleep so that I can.  Last night went well with out the binkie.  Only woke up 2 times to eat, but she also didn't give in to sleep until almost 10 ... it took about 1 1/2 hour for her to settle down.  i think she was OT and didn't want to eat but once she got a little light sleep felt like eating a little more, 2 oz from the bottle.  She went right out after that.  She is also on day 4 of having the flu bug that is going through our house.  She has been doing amazingly well for having it.  So, far I am the only one who has not gotten it! 
I have been wondering if I may need to begin to move her towards a 4 hour schedule.  I think I am just going to keep trying with what I am, keep it consistent and see where we go.  Especially when she is feeling better.
Thank  you!

Sarah

Offline ~Sara~

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 264
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 9268
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: 3.5 month old and frequent night waking! Need help!
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 15:52:34 pm »
Wow, that's awesome that her better nights are without the paci, and that she didn't really put up a fight to get rid of it!  Lucky you!  I'd just wean it, then, if the results are so positive :)

I bet things will REALLY improve once she's feeling like her normal self again...here's hoping you don't catch it either *fingers crossed*

I hope that things continue to improve for you. :)
*formerly tersaseda*