4 month old - waking early for dreamfeed

[*Carrie*]

Lo has started waking early for his dreamfeed. He used to be out for the count whilst having it then gradually he started waking during it then waking before it. DH does the dreamfeed with about 5oz of EBM. To begin with I told him to move the dreamfeed earlier with the plan of moving it back gradually to normal time once it was well established again... but the upshot was LO just started waking earlier!! Then the clocks changed which just made things even worse!!! The past three nights he has woken at 10.05, 9.55 and 9.45...  Also, when we first started the df it really seemed to be helping and we had the odd sttn with him getting to 6.30am without another feed. But now we're back to at least one feed if not two...

So what to do?? i was wondering about giving him an extra bf an hour or so after he'd gone to sleep... but might that just disrupt his sleep even more?

Our EASY is a tad erratic as naps are inconsistent whilst I'm having mixed success with w2s but we're on a loose 4 hour EASY. I'll happily post the past three days EASY if it might help but thought there might be some general advice when this waking occurs... Thanks for any help x

[deb]

Are you tanking him up toward the end of the day? Stuffing mine every two hours from about 3-4PM till bedtime seemed to help get them past that hump.

But definitely post your EASY. We might be able to shed some light on the nap problem too.

[*Carrie*]

I'd have to say no to whether I am tanking him up - he's just getting 4 feeds really. He is a really difficult one to feed if he isn't actually hungry. I'd resorted to feeds immediately after naps before we moved to the 4 hour easy. Since then it's not quite so important to catch him still sleepy but we do have to feed in his room, in the rocker chair with no distractions... I'm not sure what would happen if I tried to tank him up. I'm thinking we'd be back to the bobbing on and off and tugging on Mummy's nipples...  looking forward to getting your take on our EASY as today has been another bad nap day... but he's sleeping at the moment so best go and prepare tea!! I'll be back x

[chelled17]

Hey Carrie,  Have you tried extending his A time by 5 minutes, I know it seems you just moved to a 4hr easy, But this is exactly what DS did.  I had to extend his A time, and within a couple of days he was over it.

[*Carrie*]

Hi Michelle - that sounds like Lincoln was doing great on his routine in the first place - unfortunately Cammie has yet to get into a predictable rhythm so every day (and hence every A time) is different! His A times have been erratic - he doesn't give tired signs (like his brother before him!) so when at home I work to the 2 hour A time although often it goes a little after that by the time he is actually asleep. When we are on the move going to playgroup or some other activity for DS1 he surprises me by how long past the "nap time" he pushes it before choosing to sleep - a couple of times it's been 2.5 hours but I'm not ready to believe that's his magic time yet!

Deb - thanks for the reminder about tanking him up. When he had yet another 30 min nap (!!) at tea time there I decided to pop him on despite it only having being 2 hours 15 since the last feed - well surprise, surprise, didn't he happily guzzle what I would consider a full feed!!! I would have waited and probably done feed then bath and bed... so he got an extra feed this way.
He does have a cold so i'm wondering if the old adage "feed a cold" is true for babies too! Maybe he just needs a lot more just now and I should try a 3.5 EASY or something... aim for cluster feeds after 3 as you suggested. I'm curious tho - can you remember how you worked it into your EASY??

So I promised to post what we've been doing


                    Mon       Tues        Wed
                       
Woke            6.30         8.15        6.30
E                  7.00         8.15        6.30
A
S                  8.40         11.05       8.30
                     -10.30       -11.45     -9.10 PLUS 10.30 -11.15 (!)
E                  11.10         12           11.15         
A
S                   12.50        1.10         1.30
                     -1.30         -1.35       -3.30
E                    1.30     (no -too soon) 3.30
A
S                    3.15         3.05           5.45
                      -5.15        - 4.40         -6.15
E                    5.20          4.40           6.45
A(bath etc)
E?                   7.15          6.45
S                    7.45           7.30          8.15 (Dh putting him down - took a looongg time!)

DF(woke)         10.05          9.55          9.45


Roused             1.15am       12.50
                (shpat to sleep)
Fed                    5am        no feed!       2.30 and 5.30 (!)


Ooh - it's quite interesting looking at the days side by side like that! I have been writing it all down for 7 weeks now (!) and do take stock but side by side really helps!
Things have conspired to throw a spanner in the works of consistency. Huge hugs to my Dh who thought it would be nice for me to have a wee lie in on Tues  He was very confused when my face was like thunder when I did eventually get up! I haven't managed to get him to read the books yet!!! Activities with the toddler also get in the way and DS2 being a lovely placid baby doesn't make enough of a fuss to help me keep on track!
Any naps longer than 45 mins were achieved with w2s...

I'd say Mon was best for naps but Tues night was the best night. It had 5 feeds that day if you count the 5am one... then because he slept through, Wed only really had 4 feeds so I should have snuck one in when he wasn't settling at bedtime (I was putting the toddler to bed as a "treat" -- so hard, so hard!)

I had been shying away from a feed immediately before bed as I'm not strong enough to stop him going to sleep there... but I think we'll have to do feed before and after bath to get more in and deal with the sleeping on the breast later when he starts solids or we switch to formula... he doesn't need it to go to sleep at naptime and a couple of times lately he has taken the feed then and managed to stay awake anyway....

Sorry for this very long waffle - if you can see any reasons for the awful naps (today he never got past 30 mins himself and I only managed to extend it once!!) I'd love to hear them... I'm seriously considering trying cranial osteopathy as I've been doing my best to encourage good sleep habits from day 1 and we seem to be stuck in a cycle of not being able to nap at all for a couple of days then napping fairly well with help for a couple of days and so on...

(Mods - I couldn't work out initially where to post this. Here, Easy or Nws??? Would totally understand if you thought it would do better on another board xx)

[chelled17]

Yeah he was pretty predictable, I hope everything gets figured out for you!! 

[~Sara~]

Hey hon!  Oh HUUUGE *hugs*!!

I wish I had advice to offer on the DF wakings, but we're having the same problem.  A habitual waking every night at 10:10 on the dot!  Have been doing w2s for the past 4 nights with no success.  And when he wakes he does his frantic, excited, I-know-I-should-be-getting-a-bottle-now cry.  So exasperating.  I will try doing the earlier DF, though and see if that helps.  Couldn't hurt, right?

When you did the earlier DF, what exactly did you do (timing-wise)?

(Hey spiff-a-roo!  My 500th post...officially a chatterbox)

[*Carrie*]

Congratulations Chatterbox! xxx
We just moved the df a bit earlier than he had been waking - so it moved to 10.15 instead of nearer 11pm... not sure if I'd recommend it tho because he then started waking earlier!!! The clocks changing have not helped at all either!!!!!!

[deb]

Y'know, for the bedtime feed I had no trouble letting them fall asleep at the breast/bottle (DH and I traded off and used both for J, although N was anti-bottle LOL). They didn't do it any other time, so I was cool with it. It was also one last chance to get the calories in.

It's been so long since we were at that stage I'm not sure I remember how we worked cluster feeds into the schedule. Around that time, I think J was probably doing 3 naps of 90 minutes each after we got her 45-minute nap thing sorted. (BTW, there's a post in the Naps FAQ's about how Tracy helped us do that. We were shooting for 2 naps of 2 hours and then a 45-minute catnap, but after the OT nightmare we'd gone thru, we left it with the 90-minute naps! I'd say we probably fed her around 4-ish before her last nap, then around 6, then 8-ish at bedtime, something like that, but it's all so fuzzy now I could be way off base! LOL

Looking at the Wed schedule, he ate on waking at 6:30 and then not again till 11:15, if I'm reading that right, which might be why he was a bit extra-hungry after his catnap. Just a possibility, but still, good to know he CAN take that extra feed when it's offered.

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi there 

Great advice so not sure much to add! I'll reread your EASY tomorrow if that's okay? My head is struggling to do maths tonight!

Given the age, my immediate thought is that you are hitting the big 4month growth spurt. If you think this could be it, tank up as Deb says and get as many feeds in as he needs. Ideally getting the feeds in during the day. I cluster fed in the evenings for a long time (not sure until when tho... 6m solids I think?); I fed before bath and then before bed. If you are concerned about feeding to sleep, just make a deal with yourself to feed and put babe to bed drowsy but awake. If you're not worried about it, then don't worry! 

Around this age, lots of Mamas start feeding both sides too. So might be worth offering both sides to see what happens.

Also, if you're getting short naps remember to drop the next A time down to compensate (not sure if you're already doing this  my mind is useless tonight). Short naps followed with long naps can play hell with night sleep AND babe's feeding... for some reason they struggle to focus.

Will check back in tomorrow 

Charlotte

[*Carrie*]

Hi Charlotte - I totally don't blame you for wanting to reread the EASY tomorrow - it makes even my head ache!

And Deb - thanks for letting me know what you did about those bedtime feeds. Since then I've just relaxed about it and if he falls asleep then he falls asleep - no big deal. It's not like he HAS to feed to get to sleep as he doesn't feed immediately before naps. And I think I've read the FAQ you mentioned. Absolutely fantastic that you had help from the lady herself... there have been so many times I have wished that I could talk to her!

So things have actually been better! Last night was the best dream feed in ages - he didn't wake AT ALL and went straight back down still asleep - how it used to be and how it is meant to be. Then he STTN until 6.30am!!!!! And today's naps were 1.5 hours, then 2 hours then 30 min CN which is pretty much what I'd be aiming for I think?

So what's changed?
1. I've been cluster feeding and making sure I get 5 feeds in during the day instead of 4. I'm doing 4 hours between the first two feeds then 3.5 or 4 until the next then a feed on waking after the CN and then immediately before bed.

2. (and this could be the biggy) - we've given him calpol. Mummy's instinct was telling me something is hurting and after that night when he woke every 2 hours or so and just needed minor resettling I decided to give it a go. The first night was a lot better and he didn't wake for his DF (although woke during it   he had one feed at 2am then resettled twice for Dh at 4am and 6am. Last night was even better as mentioned above so we've given him calpol again and will keep our fingers crossed.

What the calpol is relieving is a bit of a conundrum - he has got quite a cough and cold so it could be aches to do with that or I'm wondering about his reflux - he's been on Gaviscon since he was 4 weeks old and that's been reducing the amount of sickness but I'm wondering if his troubles settling and getting into deep sleep might be a sign he needs something stronger.
I've got an appointment on Wednesday to see a cranial osteopath in case there is anything they can relieve but I'm thinking a wee trip to the Dr is probably in order too...


Charlotte - I hadn't been reducing A time after a short nap as DS2 really wasn't showing tired cues. He's been doing 2 hour A time and I'm actually questioning whether he may want more as when he's in his car seat because I'm taking DS1 somewhere he doesn't drop off until the 2.5 hour mark and then will sleep well... ??
And can you remember roughly when you were doing those cluster feeds yourself - what sort of times??

Here is today's EASY which will be a lot more straightforward to look at!

Woke  6.30
E 6.40
A
S 8.30 - 10
E10.30
A
S 12.30 -2.40 (this was in the car seat as we were supermarket shopping... and I had to wake him at 2.40!!)
E 2.40
A
S5 -5.30
E 5.30
A including bath
E 7.30
S 7.50

I'll come on tomorrow and add how the DF was and the night that followed... wish me luck!

Added in the morning:-
So... DF was at 10.45pm. He didn't wake in advance but he did come to during the feed. It wasn't a problem tho - he went back to sleep while feeding. He downed the full 5oz EBM (normally takes 4.5oz).

He did wake in the night tho - just before 2am, I let him fuss a little hoping he would go back to sleep but had to feed him (did appear to take the full feed). Then he woke again at around 5.45 which was troublesome - if he feeds at that time then he won't feed when I get him up at 7 and it has a knock on effect. DH tried to settle him and he dozed for ten minutes on and off until I fed him at 6.40 and started the day then...