Author Topic: We need help...running out of ideas  (Read 3985 times)

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Offline Tweakster

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We need help...running out of ideas
« on: November 10, 2009, 15:04:23 pm »
Finn is nearly 8 months.

Our EASY is a big mess lately, we managed to drop the CN and then DST made everything crazy.  We have NW, EW and general nap chaos.  We were doing so well before DST with set naps and used W2S to help push out the EW :'( ::) ???

Here's what we have normally have:
Awake 5:30ish - in crib until 6
Nap #1 8:45/9 - 10:15/10:30 (he struggles with a long morning A...)
Nap #2 1:15/1:30 - 3
Bedtime 6 or 6:15, 6:30 at a push

Now we have resigned ourselves to the fact that the kid is an early riser.  We have pretty much given up the dream anything beyond a 6 - 6 for now, so that's fine.  However, since DST he has been NW (random times) and also getting up at 4ish.  We cleaned up OT from DST last week- I had to bring the CN back a couple of times and then early bedtime and we had a really decent weekend with naps...but still had NW and EW.  On one of the NW he took 6 oz at 3 in the morning...GS??  I don't know.

Yesterday:
EW 4:45 - feed back to sleep, 5 oz
Awake at 7
Nap #1 9:39 - 10:40 - he fought going down, probably UT but he did seem tired...
Nap #2 1:38 - 3:15 (weird length...)
Asleep by 6:30
We planned to do W2S but the alarm didn't go off and he woke at 4:45 - I fed him back down until 7. 

This morning DH went in at 4, he was already awake on all fours rocking back and forth.  Had to feed him again.
It's becoming habitual and we are falling into traps with the food.

I don't know where or what to tweak now...and I'm frankly just tired.

The tweaking never stops!

Offline sherry lynn

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 17:54:40 pm »
Hey Wendy - that stinks that you are having such a rough time :(

I just wanted to remind you that 6:30-5:30 isn't really an EW :(  At least not for us. 11 hours is really our personal best for night sleep. Does Finn usually do 12 hours? It's a cruddy time to be up. I know that from lots of personal experience. Including right now. But, still 11 hours a night is great.

It could very well be a growth spurt. But, it probably is turning into habitual.

It seems that over all your nap lengths are good.

Is there any way that he is teething and that's causing some of the NW and Early mornings?
DS#1: 30 Oct 2007
DS#2 19 Feb 2010

Offline Tweakster

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 18:34:18 pm »
Hi there Sherry, 5 - 5:30 is ok it's the 4:45, 4:30, 4:00 a.m. that is killing us since DST.  We have tried to 'reset' this kid with no luck.

11 hours is pretty much the best we have had too...11.5 I think we threw a party that day.  More often than not now it's like 9 - 10 hours though :-(  He can manage it a few days and then we are back to OTland.

He's not teething just now, 3 teeth came through the top in the last month but he's not drooling or biting more than usual this week.  He seems fine during the day, naps are a bit of a battle but generally good, he's not doing anything developmental (which could be the problem, although we give lots of practice)

dunno...*me throws hands up*
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Offline sherry lynn

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 19:57:17 pm »
All I can really offer is hugs *hugs and more hugs* I've thrown my hands up so many times as well.

We've been going through some of those 4 o'clock wakings lately as well. I was so happy to start getting the 5:30 wakings, isn't that kind of sick :) 

I like your little saying at the bottom there about tweaking, isn't that the truth. As soon as you think you have it figured out it changes.
DS#1: 30 Oct 2007
DS#2 19 Feb 2010

Offline Tweakster

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 20:05:02 pm »
I guess we'll just keep trying to truck along with W2S and keeping the decent naps.  Do you think I should shorten either nap?  He's doing 1.5 - 1.75 hours for both AM & PM most days, occasionally a 2 hr thrown in here or there.

You're STILL getting 4 a.m. wakings at the age of 2???  Sherry you're not giving me any hope here girl lol.
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Offline sherry lynn

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 20:16:30 pm »
Lyle's extreme though. I seriously don't know anybody on her yet who's had as many "issues" as we have. I know they are around, but I guess they don't complain as much as I do. hahaha

We get some good weeks in there and I get my hopes all up, and then it all goes to pot again.

Honestly I think I would cut them down. I would do no more than 2x1.5. I know that stinks, but it probably is cutting into his nigh sleep. That might actually really help. The 4am waking nonsense always always always means too much day time sleep for us. Except I guess right now because we are both dealing with DLS fallout, but It's still worth cutting.

Good eye for catching that. I didn't realize he was doing so well for both naps. I think after 9ish months we really really don't want any more than 3 hours of day time sleep. Especially for crazy spirited babies who seem to be low on A time but also low on sleep needs. Who ever heard of such nonsense. It's the most confusing combination, but it seems to be a common issue in spirited LO. And then on top of that they spiral into OT at the drop of a hat.
DS#1: 30 Oct 2007
DS#2 19 Feb 2010

Offline Mashi

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2009, 20:35:30 pm »
Wendy we lived with that routine from the time DS ws about 5 months until 9 months.  Allllll last winter. Started with the time change and went through the catnap dropping. And then continued.  I can handle 530 wakeups in the summer, when the sun starts creeping up at 4am (northern England  :) ) but all winter when it was pitch black until nearly 730 am...UGH.

I also remember MANY nights with that 445/500 wake up DH suggesting hunger and I was adamant that I was not feeding this child who had not taken a night feed since he was 12 weeks.  Although I admit many times my adamance was more out of stubbornness that I was not going to let DH be right.   :-\   

But, he is taking 5 ounces though and he is going back to sleep once he's been fed (right?) When he has that is he still hungry for his regular bottle on waking? It does suggest that he may truly be hungry...but it gets into a cycle as you have said!

But if he is only an 11 hour nightsleeper then I just can't see how you will get later wakeups with the early bedtime.  Can you start pushing him 15 minutes before bed every few nights? What I have always done when I just KNOW that the afternoon nap has ended too early to make the extra 15 minutes until bed (or if it is morning nap, then until the next nap) is keep DS in his cot after the nap has ended (usually sitting with him) still shhing and encouraging him to lie calmly in the dark-ish room.  Keeps him from getting up and "about" iykwim. 

It also looks like he could probably handle a longer A time before his afternoon nap - he's just hitting 3 hours there and I wonder if you start pushing it a wee bit if that will make the day a bit longer for him and knock bedtime out later as well. 

NWs....have you tried pain meds? I know you say he is not teething right now, but if he has 3 top teeth then I suspect that 4th one can't be too far behind as they do tend to come through in pairs.

Offline Tweakster

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2009, 20:50:41 pm »
Thanks mashi. 

He is taking reasonably good amounts on these NW or EW.  The issue we have is that he is not taking solids or very little solids - he's just taking his 3x 8 oz bottles - and most of the time only 20 oz or so per day.  Each bottle is thickened with rice cereal for the reflux though, I'm a big chicken and don't want to cut back yet even though it's really time to try.  I seem to have it in my head that eating right i.e. not bottle refusing = good sleep.  Reflux really did me in.  So usually when he wants to eat for comfort I'll allow it...because he got so little of that in the first several months.  Bad habit.

He's never been hungry for his bottle upon waking since the rice cereal, or even before that I think.  He likes to eat at least an hour after waking.  So we have always done a weird AEAS kind of deal, even splitting feeds around naps at times. 

I could give ibuprofen to rule out the teething.  I know there's another tooth in there, he just doesn't seem that bothered.  Or maybe he is and that is what he is trying to tell me with the NW lol

Today he had a nearly 2 hour AM nap ca. 1 hr 50 I think it was and then I was able to push his middle A.  I just woke him from his PM nap after 1.5 hours...he was really really mad, started crying as soon as I turned the white noise down etc. lol.  How rare to wake my little short napper. 

Sherry, I hear you on this low sleep low A thing.  What gives?  I can't believe I missed that Finn is Spirited.  He's a crossover with Touchy but so much of the Touchy things don't fit him whereas Spirited is really rearing it's head lately lol.
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Offline sherry lynn

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 00:55:07 am »
It has always just gutted me to wake Lyle from naps after it took soooooo much work and time to get him to nap properly. Just wait until he starts only taking one nap a day and then you have to cut that nap :(  It's the pits. But, I pay for it if I don't. ie. 4:00 am starts to the day.

It's going to be hard to push the A times and cut naps, so maybe work on pushing that middle A time first ??? Although, I really do think you need to limit the day sleep to 3 hours. What do you think about that Mashi?
DS#1: 30 Oct 2007
DS#2 19 Feb 2010

Offline huntersmummyinoz

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 00:59:11 am »
i'm thinking along the same lines as mashi, in that if he is taking that much at a nw feed and still taking usual amounts for his bottles then he may be hungry, so time to start getting more calories in during the day. you could try increasing his daytime bottles an oz but i'd really suggest more solids at his age. what is he eating for meals, how much and when?

and sherry is already advising for nap lengths so i wont add anything there. except my LO is a bear when i have to wake him from a nap, i find it helps if i open his door to let some light in and just happen to not do things very quietly around the house (open and shutting a few doors, flushing toilet etc). for some reason he then seems to think he has woken on his own and is fine rather than me trying to physically wake him.

hang in there :-*



Offline huntersmummyinoz

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 01:02:13 am »
sherry posted when i did, i agree to try and stick to 3hrs total naps if you can. could be 2 x 1.5hrs, or 2hr + 1hr, etc.

i dont have experience with spiriteds as hunter is touchy, but ew here was usually always solved by adding 10/15mins first A time. only exception we've had is ew from teething.



Offline Tweakster

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2009, 02:46:26 am »
Hi there, after me waking him at 3:30, he was asleep by 6:45 but has been waking every hour on the hour since...  Going to give pain meds - just in case.  I saw another tooth breaking through on the bottom when I brushed his teeth tonight, no idea where that came from!  Seems they are breaking through fast and furious here.  I wish he was more consistent on his 'I'm teething now' signs.  It would be nice to think that's all it is...

He only eats every ca. 5 hours at a push, an 8 oz bottle with around 4 tbsps of rice cereal and formula.  He won't take more than 3 bottles in the day time and only drains one of the bottles, usually the lunchtime one.  We've tried offering more at 4 or so hours but he gets really stroppy and upset if you try to feed him when he's not hungry. For solids he won't eat purees, I can get about two spoonfuls in and then he just spits them back out.  I have a post on the solids board about it all.  He will mush up solids like toast etc. but won't swallow anything.

Tonight he didn't even want to take his bedtime bottle, he has now decided that he doesn't want me to feed him!  He kept slapping it away, I would put it down on the nightstand and then he would start reaching for it.  In the end I let him just lie on the floor and feed himself, he didn't drink the whole thing but he did pretty good on it, 6 oz.  He's pretty determined.
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Offline Mashi

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 10:40:53 am »
I also think that 3 hours is a good amount of day sleep for him at this age, but I would be hesitant to cut it too much if he is not getting good quality nightsleep...cutting it in little bits first until he makes up the little bit at night, iykwim.  My spirited short napper was also very touchy at that age and on days when I had to wake him he was grumpy grumpy and I always kicked myself for it later. 

Another thing I realised was not to "give in" and accept that he is just an early riser - not at 7 months old.  The danger in doing that is that as he gets older you will ALWAYS have an early riser, instead of trying to work at it NOW while he is young and teaching him to sleep a bit later.  But, DH and I would rather have him up in the evenings for later and sleep later than have him down early and up early. I didn't give in and accept that he was an early riser and around 11 months...12 months, somewhere in there, we finally got 12 hour nights with 7am (sometimes a shocking 730am!) wake up.  There were (and still are) always reasons for his EWs and working with him to try to shuffle things paid off for me. I'm not saying that there isn't such thing as an early riser, just saying that just because he is NOW doesn't mean that you can't accept that it is what he is doing at the moment but keep trying to work at getting his body clock to set to wake later.  Does that make sense?

If he is teething he may be extra tired and actually need a bit MORE sleep than a "typical" A time / sleep time chart for his age. And that would mean that 10 hour night sleep is in fact OT.  (How would you know?  I used to "test" it a couple of days by putting him down to sleep at first sleepy signs and letting him sleep as long as he wanted, for all naps and bed.  If then we got some NWs to play or some EWs that were not OT but playful, then I knew he was caught up, and dealt with it the next day.  Again, not sure if I am explaining adequately?)  What makes me think this is that he was in bed 3h15m after his nap, but the waking every hour after bedtime is a good sign of some OT - and you woke him from that nap.  I think today if you can get another good afternoon nap in, then it might be a good idea to allow him to sleep as long as he wants, and then try for bedtime 3h-3h30m after that, and see if that puts you at a later wake up time in the morning.  He would be well rested before bed, but might be going to bed closer to 7pm is and see if that pushes the wake to 530/600.

I have also seen your solids post and I do think that the waking for a bottle is probably related, which sort of makes my ramblings above seem pointless, as the two are so inter-related. But I have no experience feeding a refluxer as what we thought was reflux in my DS turned out to be milk allergy and once he was on HA formula all of the "reflux" disappeared, and that was before we started solids. Is he medicated with anything other than the thickened bottles? Gaviscon or ranitidine? 




Offline Tweakster

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 11:37:35 am »
Hi there, everything makes sense when I read someone else saying it hehe.  I totally agree on the early riser idea, what we basically do is if he's up at 4ish we tend to try to get him back down because we just can't get up at that hour and he hasn't had enough night sleep.  If it's after 5 we just leave him to his own accord and don't go in until 6 or shortly thereafter. 

Yeah he's on Prevacid.  We are supposed to be reducing the thickening just to see if that helps him take more solids, but I suspect it's not a matter of him being 'full'; it's more matter of him not liking the whole feeding experience.  He's just always been a troubled feeder.  I have my theory that it's related to him being aspirated for meconium at birth, other than that he had a great delivery, but they whisked him out and shoved that tube down his throat and thus we have had issues ever since, particularly with swallowing.  No one (docs, GI specialist, occup. therapist) will give any weight to my theory...

His teething signs are very unreliable but he does a lot of eye-rubbing which now I have realized isn't always 'I'm tired' - it seems more like 'I'm bothered by something' lately.  So perhaps that is it.  I guess it's just that his teeth bother him more at night, he's more distractable during the day etc.

DH went to try W2S this morning at 4, barely had his hand on the knob and heard him in there.  He came back to bed without going in.  Finn must have gotten back to sleep because I didn't hear a peep until 5:18.  So that's only 10.5 hours which I do think catches up with him. 

So I am aiming for a 1.5 AM nap, 1.5 PM nap or slightly longer if he needs it and then a later bedtime with dosing pain meds beforehand?  Does that sound like a good plan of attack??

The tweaking never stops!

Offline sherry lynn

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Re: We need help...running out of ideas
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 14:30:34 pm »
I don't think it's a matter of being an "early riser" there are some LO out there who are. Lyle's not necisarily and "early riser" he's best wake ups are about 6:30.

However, I do notice that a lot of people to not really pay attention to how much over all sleep their LO are doing.

Wendy - on your best routines how much sleep is he getting over all? It seems to me that he used to be a poor napper, but did better at night. Now he is napping well and doing shorter nights?

I think he has shifted he's sleep. But maybe I'm wrong.

If he's teething it's probably not the time time tweak things ??? I think you might end up with a grumpy LO in the afternoon.
DS#1: 30 Oct 2007
DS#2 19 Feb 2010