not quite 2-1 but don't want to lose it now

[lilisuze]

yeah for angelica. hope it stays that way for you!

[mimi1017]

Thank you! I hope your ds's sleep gets sorted out too :-).

[lilisuze]

its not so bad really, just daycare messes things up every week! but yesterday was great he took 2 naps, one of 1 hour in the morning (thanks becky for the tip) and 1.5 hours in the afternoon, bed at 7 and woke this morning at 10 to 7. Woo!

This is ideal for me, so think this is great!

Any ideas for what to do if we have to go out for taking more than catnaps? unless he is in a bed (travel cot is fine he sleeps in there) he only goes to 1 cycle and thats it.....in the old days he would take 3 in a day instead of 2 but now??

Lili xx

[mimi1017]

That's great Lili! I don't know about traveling because my dd won't sleep anywhere besides her crib, unless OT of course, hopefully someone can advice you on that.  Well as for us, after a blissful week we are back on nap refusal starting this past Sunday (sigh), so she had to CN(4:50-5:30pm) in the car Sunday afternoon after such a long A from her am and only nap of one hour that ended at 10:30am, then she didn't fall asleep for bedtime till 8 which I expected it to happen.  So yesterday she did the same thing with my mom, but I didn't CN like Sunday because it robs her night sleep, so she went to bed at 6:30, with a 6am wakeup, which is great considering how paranoid I was this morning thinking she'll go back to EW.  Therefore I decided to cut her am nap short this morning by going in when she changes sleep cycle (at the 40-45 min. mark when she opens her eyes before dozing off again), but I'm not sure how long her A should be her pm nap. Today has been like this so far:

Woke 6am         (note: she won't do more than 3 hrs A in the morning before becoming OT)
Sleep CN 9:05-9:50
Nap2 1:10-still sleeping and it's been an hour (whew!)  (*layed her down at 12:50 since she was clearly tired, but she cried for a second and seemed to be having a hard time falling asleep, so I'm thinking she was OT?)

If she was OT then this is where I have a hard time figuring it out...she does well on an 13 hour day, 11 hrs. total A time for an 11 hour night, but if she does 3 hrs. A in the am, say 2.75 hrs. A (because of the am CN) before second nap, then that would leave with about 5.25 hrs. A before bedtime, which seems a bit much?  This is why today I pushed her to 3.25 A for second nap (which is her normal A after a nice am nap) but seems to have been OT...anyone's experiences greatly appreciated.  (If I need to make my own post please let me know, I don't mean to hog Lili's post, but thought it was similar) Thanks!

[lilisuze]

its fine, stick here!! we need to get some more people to check the post!!

My lo quite often does 5.25A before bed, and some bubs are good at handling it before bed, kind of winding them up to a big sleep with a big A kwim?

If she is doing a catnap in the morning, then 1pm is about right for pm nap, but you would hope she will sleep for 1.5h. If not thats when she's likely to get OT. In this case you could try to extend the nap or take a sneaky trip in the car (works for my lo!) about 5pm!! Alternatively i find lots of snacks help the time pass till bedtime!

We had a crib party last night at 4am!! Did not go to him, just left him and after 20 minutes he went back to sleep. The woke at 6.40 for the day, however, 1 hr nap 11-12 and that was it yesterday, so waaaaaay OT!

[mimi1017]

Thanks for keeping me on here Lili, but I feel like we've been abandoned :-( I had my mom cut dd's am nap to 40 mins. this morning and she refused her pm nap, she put her down after 3 hours A time from the morning and she tried and played for an hour.  Of course she was miserable before bedtime and wouldn't even fall asleep in the car for a pm CN. This is how it has been:

Yesterday Monday
woke 6am
sleep 9:05-9:50 (woke her to go to the doctor's and thought it would be a good time to start shortening am nap.)
nap 2 1:10-3:15 (had to wake her...unbelievable)
bedtime 7:15pm (surprised me because she usually does 4.50-4.75 A before bed)

Today
woke 6:15 :-)
nap 1 9:20-10:00 (mom woke her)
Mom saw her rubbing her eyes at 12:45 so she got her ready into bed and totally played, complained for an hour and refused her pm nap.
bedtime at 6:15pm, with two cry outs at 30mins. marks, but right back to sleep (definetely OT) :-(

So I'm wondering, is it best to keep A time to 2.5 maybe after a 40 min. am CN?

Someone please give me some guidance, it was very disheartening today... :-(

[lilisuze]

i would say even after a catnap that 2.5h A is too short. If she went in bed and played thats sure UT and the fact that it was only 2.5h i would think thats nowhere near enough A. I think you should try a snack at that time, some milk and cookies or fruit, just something to keep her interest up so you dont get tempted to put her down too early. I have done this soooo many times, and early nap time just results in complete nap refusal. I think this way by going out to the kitchen to get it ready you can stretch another hour out because she will play again afterwards easy peasy!

lili xx

[mimi1017]

Well shortening am naps is not going well :-( . Yes she is taking a PM nap but now EW again so that means she's getting into an OT cycle. yesterday was

Woke 5:45
Nap 1 9:00-9:30 got her up when she stirred
Nap2 12:40-2:25 cried a bit to fall asleep and woke grumpy
Bedtime 7:10 she fell asleep calmly

I really need some guiidance today

[becky1969]

Hi! Let's see what I can do!

I think what's happening is AM nap is too early (b/c she's waking so early).  That puts 2nd nap early, and then by a 7:10 bedtime she's been up for about 5 hours which is a HUGE stretch for a LO not on 1 nap yet.

What I would do is push that AM nap later, regardless of when she gets up.  Yes, she'll probably be OT but what do we care! LOL! We only need her to sleep 30 min.  It almost works to our benefit if she's OT b/c then she'll wake herself early. THEN PM nap can move a bit later (like more like 2-3:30) and then a 7:00 bedtime will easily be within her grasp.

I'd try

Wake 5:45

Nap 1 10:00-10:30

Nap 2:00-3:30

Bed 7:00

See how taht goes! And that should get you a alater wake up, which makes she can either a) more easily make it to 10, or b) you can push AM nap even later, which gets you closer to 1 nap land.

Make sense?

[mimi1017]

Thanks Becky for replying so soon.  Just to give you some background on my dd since this whole mess started.. :-( Right after her first birthday she started refusing the pm nap, so I thought of pushing her am nap later by 15 mins. but she would refuse, until it got to where she went down at 5.25 hours in the AM, which resulted in 45 mins., 1 hr., 1.5 hours max for a nap, and totally refusing a nap in the pm even if I tried to AP.  That went on for 2 weeks, and her wake up was as early as 5:15, so she was def OT at this point. Then one day she fell asleep in the car on our way to the doctor and woke in 25 mins. and took a pm nap after 4.5 hrs A, but she fought it a bit (OT) and then had a regular bedtime and she woke at 6am the next day and then she went back to napping in the am for about 1.25 hours and taking a pm nap of about the same time.  This was fine and peachy for a week, then last Sunday she started refusing the pm nap again.  We tried extending her am A time in 15 mins. but by that time she is usually a mess, ready to sleep.  I have cut her nap for the past three days with no success, meaning that now she is waking earlier which usually means she's going to bed OT.  I know what you mean about extending the pm A, but she doesn't seem to last that long especially having a nap cut short.  By the way, of all the times that I try cutting a nap short, she ends up going into an OT cycle 99% of the time.  Is there another alternative to dealing with this transition?  Right now since I know she just had 10.5 hours of night sleep (from the 11hrs-11.50hrs. she had been doing), I'm letting her sleep in her AM nap, although I might regret it later on if she refuses her pm nap... :-(  I really don't know how to go about this despite the great advices I get here.

[becky1969]

Then the key is finding the magic time between the 2 naps.  There are *some* toddlers who go thru the 2-1 having a long AM/short PM (rather than the short AM/long PM we typically recommend).  But it doesn't sound like that will work for your DD! So we're left with doing the short AM/long PM when they start refusing PM naps b/c of too much sleep in the morning.

Sounds to me that your problem hasn't been the short nap -- like I said, who cares if she's OT as long as she'll sleep 30 min in the AM.  Your problem is finding the space between the 2 naps where she'll still sleep in the PM a decent amt of time.  so it's experimentation time! I'd start with 3 hours between naps, and then move it out by 15 min until you find the sweet spot.


As to how much to limit AM, that's also up to experimentation.  To me, it sounds like she should be somewhere in the 45-60 min range right now.  You've been cutting out of desperation, and I'm not sure she's needed it to be cut as much as you have.  So maybe start with 45 and separate naps by 3 hours and see how that goes for 2-3 days.  Then do 45 min and 3h15 betwen naps for 2-3 days, etc.  We need to stay at each new time for at least 2 dyas to allow her body clock to change.  That's ESPECIALLY imp. during the 2-1 switch as it's allllll about timing during this change!

HTH!

[mimi1017]

Hmmm....you may be on to something  Well I started shortening her naps since Tuesday at the 45 mins. mark when she stirred and she feel asleep for the second nap at 3.5 hours, although I put her down at the 3 hour mark.  Then on Wednesday my mom got her when she stirred at 40 min. mark and she outright refused the second nap from then on even in the car  , so yes out of desperation I got her up yesterday at the 30 min. mark when she stirred (clearly OT from such a long A before A time the night before) and then she cried a bit to fall asleep for the second nap at 3.25 hrs. A eventhough I put her down at 3 hrs. A from first nap, seemed like she was OT, and woke up grumpy too.  Today I may bang my head on the wall later, but i was about to go in at the 45 min. mark, and she stirred and cried, then went back to sleep...since then she has gone back to sleep on/off sort of restless but sleeping and she just woke now from 9:05-10:20, seems happy even babbling, so I don't know how it will go now.  Do you suggest I try 30 mins. with a shorter A maybe? since the 45 min. she refused pm nap the other day and that's all I got  , or go for 30 with a shorter A since she seemed OT by the time I got her down yesterday for the pm nap and she had an EW this morning?   

[becky1969]

It won't hurt to go with 30 and then do like 3-3.5 hours before 2nd nap.

Hitting the 2nd nap right is a delicate process: too soon, and she'll fight it b/c she's UT; too late and she'll fight it b/c she's OT! so, it's better to try 3 first and then just be calm in the room with her -- use some AP if you have to to get her down.  Once you figure out her sweet spot, you can drop the AP and just let her sleep like normal.