Shorter A times = Longer naps!! How do I extend A then?

[Flightmommy]

Hi!
  I was previously posting in the naps forum, for what I believe was/is a nap problem, but i'm thinking it's more of a "getting the right A times " into my EASY. My DS is 9 months old and has always been on the low side of A times. He tires very easily and is very sensitive to even small increases in A times, so i've got to be very careful and also watch the clock, as his cues only occur once he's already on his way to OT. He is not crawling yet, nor actively teething, so I don't think the issue is developmental. He goes down independently, almost never fusses at bedtime or naps( unless he is very OT) and STTN. The problem started last month when he was doing 40 minute naps, chronically and obviously got very OT. I tried increasing his A times and that sometimes worked, but he's also been doing very EW, which makes for early naps and then early bedtime, and so goes the cycle again of EW the next morning.
 Previously, we were on a 7-7 sked, but i've not seen a 7 am waking in weeks....and soooo miss them! The potential for a longer A time seems to be in the am, but for the second A time, he doesn't seem to be able to handle the same amount. And so, goes for his pm nap early and wakes early....leading to a loooong A time before bed. I've tried doing a CN here and there, when that last A time was getting too long, but he's been refusing it lately as he's just getting too old for it.
  Here is today's EASY, not ideal, nor consistent with any other day, but just an idea of what we're doing:
 6:05 wake (bedtime last night 7:15pm, plays for 45-60 minutes when he wakes in the am, just quietly, so if i don't set my alarm and wake early, I would never know what time he opens his eyes!!)
 7am breastfeed
 8:15am breakfast
 9:00am -10:25am Sleep (was aiming for a longer A time, but he just fell asleep right away, so only 2.55 A, but had the longest nap in days!!)
 11:15 breastfeed
 12:15 lunch
 1:35-2:35pm Sleep (prior A time 3.10)
 3:30pm breastfeed
 5pm dinner
 7pm Asleep
  I know his A times are very low for his age and definitely need increasing, but the last 3 mornings before today, I increase A time slowly from 3.05, to 3.20 and always got a hour nap! Today's A time was shorter and i got a much longer nap (1h25). Does that mean that he's happier with the shorter A? Also, the pm nap has been an hour for days now, no matter what the previous A time is or how long the am nap was. I would like this nap to be the longest and also be later in the day, cause as it stands now, DS is sooo OT by dinner time and will NOT take a CN!
  I am just so tired of having my days revolve around Atimes and short naps, but I am determined to fix this....any suggestions or advice please?
 

[greenteamomma]

I will offer what advice I know...not that  much but for what its worth...  Your LO A times will not all be the same throughout the day.  The guidelines are for one or two of the A times.  Your LO does have low A times though.  Even though he goes down so easily when you put him down doesn't mean you missed his cues and put him down too late.  that still could be his shortest A times but you will need to experiment.....My LO has a long A time (almost 4 hrs) in the morning and then a short A time in between (maybe 3.25 or 3) since I shorten his am nap.  The morning A time used to be his shortest and his last one used to be passed 4 hrs before...now he could never last that long in the pm...just when you think you've figured it out....
I think you should look at shortening the am nap a little and see if that gives you a better pm nap.  Ultimately you will be doing this as he transitions (down the road, way down the road...).  It is scary and will take some time but it will work itself out. I would also push his first nap a little later, I know he's touchy so maybe 5-10 minutes at first.  That might also help with his early wakes.   You could also just do one of the two, push his A time later first and then if the pm nap still is short, shorten the am nap a little.  By pushing the am nap some, you still have the day to "fix" the day.

[Flightmommy]

Thanks so much! Today DS woke at 6:15am and was asleep for his am nap by 3:15, so I extended the A time by 15 minutes as 3 hours has been our normal "standard". Didn't have to shorten the nap as he woke on his own after an hour.....for the next A time, I was aiming just under 3 hours cause I noticed last week that that would result in a 1.5 hour nap, which would be perfect as he fell asleep today at 1:25pm....crossing my fingers and toes for a long nap. It just makes such a difference in his mood and is a completely different baby when he's well rested.
   I'm guessing the one hour nap in the am is slightly OT as he would sleep longer if I reduced the A time, but then wouldn't sleep as long in the pm. Since i'd rather have the longer nap in the pm, I'll stick to this 1 hour am nap and longer A time.

[greenteamomma]

You can try this for a few days and see where it leads you.  Sometimes it takes a few days to see a difference. Then, I would try to push that first nap a little again.  If he starts refusing that pm nap, I would cut the am nap a little and see if he sleeps longer.  He's getting enough sleep but the sleep is pretty early in the day.  That last A time seems pretty long so you want to push the day some to get that nap later if not longer, in my opinion.  It works for some babies so it all depends on you.  How does he act by the end of the day?

[Flightmommy]

I agree, the last A is long, in fact..too long, he's usually miserable and feeding him dinner is a challenge. I know it's the fatigue, cause he's usually a good eater. I really want to get rid of these dinner time chaos, but it looks like today is heading that way....DS just woke from his pm nap at 2:40, so a 1h10 nap. Is that OT or UT? Cause i'm sure it's not just right...as he'll be getting grizzly is just a couple of hours. 
  Seing as im getting such short naps, should I continue with this sked for a few days to see if there's any improvements, or should I tweak starting tomorrow?
  I'm going to aim for a bedtime, as in eyes closed, of 6:40pm, but i'm just so afraid of an EW....they haven't been THAT bad lately (usually past 6am), so i'd like to keep it that way. Thanks for your advice!

[greenteamomma]

I would push the am nap the same as today and see what happens.  Can your lo handle a longer A time between nap 1 and nap 2?  Maybe he's not tired at that point since he's getting an hour of sleep in the am so he's not sleeping long in the pm.  That might push the day some too. It depends on what your LO can handle though, sometimes one tweak at a time is better but since that first nap is not that short that A time seems low too! That hour is refreshing to him. 
As a side note, be carefull of OT more then EW.  I've been there so I know that you don't like EW but OT is way harder to fix in terms of YOUR sanity. Once OT sets in, everything goes to mush.... 

[Flightmommy]

By the way, i'm also in ontario...where about's are you?

[greenteamomma]

Cambridge/Kitchener/Waterloo

[Flightmommy]

Hey, we're not too far from each other...i'm on the Caledon/brampton border!

[greenteamomma]

Wow, not to far at all...I work in Mississauga when Im not on mat leave!  There are several moms from the area on here.  What do you do?

[*Liz*]

Hi there 

Just wanted to say the EW is certainly being driven by the A before bed which is certainly too long. So then you get OT EWs.

I agree with your plan for fixing this - limit the am nap to 1hr and then find the right A for a long pm nap.

I would suggest 3hrs A first thing, then 3hrs A again after the 1hr nap, and then 3.5hrs to bed hopefully. If you are hoping to go through the 2-1 with a short am and long pm nap I would actually keep the first A at 3hrs of your DS will allow as it makes things much easier later.

Let us know how it goes.

[Flightmommy]

A nice long pm nap would feel like winning the lottery right about now.....there hasn't been any of those in such a long time, no matter what A times I use or how long the am nap is. But I do know that the pm nap and the last A time are certainly the root of our problems and causing the EW's.
  I can't seem to extend the second A time either, as he gets easily OT during this period and so, the second A needs to be slightly shorter than the first. With the first A, DS has had a full night of sleep prior to this, so he's better able to stretch out, without getting OT. But seing as I'm cutting the am nap to one hour and this is a bit short for him, then the second A time is a little touchy. Seing as I can't seem to extend the pm nap and can't stretch the A time prior to it, and now can no longer do a catnap.....how will I EVER shorten his last A??? I so desperately want to get out of this cycle....it's starting to affect me, I just want to cry when I hear DS waking from his pm nap after only an hour and it's only 2:30pm, so he's up for the whole afternoon...
  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this please?

[*Liz*]

When you say you can't extend the A, can I ask what you mean? Is it because of sleepy cues, crankiness or that he will short nap?

Once you are limiting a nap in some ways it is easier to find the right A as you are working from the same point every time ie we are looking for his A after a 1hr morning nap. My DS was very senstive to the length of the first nap and his A altered depending on how long the nap had been. So babies aren't like that at all and will do the same A regardless of whether it is a 1 or 2 hr nap. But Jacob had a good 30 mins difference in A between a 1 and 2 hr nap. So I ended up knowing what to do after a 1he nap, a 1.5hr nap and a 2hr nap - but if it happened to be a 1h 15 nap or 1h 45 I struggled to get it right.

Perhaps this is partly your issue.

I could never extend naps either, and the only thing I could do was battle on with A times.

What personality type is your lo? That sometimes helps to work out HOW to push the A.

My DS has A times which get shorter as the day goes on as well.

What would happen if you put your lo to bed at 6pm instead? A lot of lo's would just sleep the extra hour and wake at 6am anyway - but after a full 12 hr night they are fully rested and it is easier to stretch the A the following day.

[Flightmommy]

Hi there...sorry, I should have given more  details, but what I mean by not being able to extend the A times is that he gets very grizzly...takes forever to settle and then has a short 40 minute, or even 30 minute nap and is then even worst off afterwards. His personality is grumpy with a touch of spirited, so he can be quite challenging if things aren't just right...which is why sleep is golden around here, it makes such a difference.
  Yesterday's pm nap after 3.10 A time ( long 1.45 am nap due to short 10 hour night previously) was 40 minutes, but when I picked him up from his crib, he was rubbing his eyes and crying and rested his head on my shoulder, so I just walked around the room and he fell asleep on me....I was too afraid that he'd wake up if I placed him down, so I sat in the rocking chair and let him sleep on me for another 45 minutes....complete APOP, i know, but it gave him a long pm nap that brought us to 3:15pm!! Bedtime was at 6:50 and he slept through until 6:30 this morning..longest night in weeks!! So, the key is long pm nap and shorter A time between nap and bedtime.....but how do I do this without of course the APOP!!
  He was tired very quickly this morning ( and was running a mild fever yesterday, so i'm thinking teething?? he doesn't have any teeth yet, so it's hard to tell), but I managed to stretch him out to 3.05 A time. He fell asleep at 9:35am and i'll wake him after an hour or so, if he's not up on his own. I'm thinking i'll keep the next A time just under 3 hours, i know it's extremely short for his age, but it seems to give us longer naps. I just hope I don't overdo it and end up with a UT nap instead!!
   

[greenteamomma]

Just chiming in quick.  Good that you got a good sleep, atleast someone did ! 
3 hrs for his second A time is not short since you are cutting the first one. 
You can try soothing him in his crib first.  Patting his back or belly, telling him to sleep.  It might work....dont have a grumpy baby though.  If he's teething it is a whole different story and maybe he really needed that cuddle.  Some people only do PD, getting them to lay down, instead of PUPD. 
Just take your time, you are doing well in my opinion experimenting and that what this is with cutting the naps and stuff, experimenting.   As Liz said, sometimes its the naps and sometimes its the A times.