2 months too early for PU/PD

[linsysunshine]

Quick question...

my 2-month-old daughter doesn't seem to respond very well to the shush pat and I'm wondering if it's too soon to start the PU/PD, why it's not recommended for under 4 months. I put her down swaddled and she goes down for her nap well enough these days but she wakes after an hour. She just won't calm down to the shh pat, she jumps as though each long shhhhhhhh startles her. Tracy mentions in the book that to fix habitual night wakings that waking baby before she wakes and putting her back to sleep will break the habit. Would this work for naps that are to last 1 1/2- 2 hours?

Any input would be appreciated.

[mimi1017]

You would certainly have to post your routine for everyone to see if there needs to be any tweaking to see what could be causing the NWs.  As for pu/pd, it is definitely not recommended for young babies.  My dd never really responded to the pat part of shh/pat, but more of a belly rub, or just putting my hand on her so she knew I was there while I shhh slowly.  Maybe try to find another way to comfort her, such as blocking her eyes from stimulation while slowly stroking between her brows, or rubbing her back, tummy...it's all a matter of trial and error.  Certainly at 2 months, they are still starting to learn how to be comforted without rocking, or feeding to sleep.  I'm sure you'll get some great feedback here. :-)

[Peek-a-boo]

Totally agree with mim1017. 

Pu/pd is too stimulating for a 2 month old and may back fire.  It's also meant to teach 100% independent sleep and some babies under 4 months just don't have the self-soothing capabilities to do that.

After an hour of sleep, your baby is probably pretty well rested and it will be tough to resettle her.  You may have more success trying to extend her naps in other ways.  If your baby is consistently waking from naps at 1 hour, you could try wake to sleep as described here:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=121269.0

You might also try increasing or decreasing her A time as sometimes short naps are a sign that baby was either too tired or not tired enough when she went down.  Also, 2 month olds are often just inherently a bit unpredictable, so it may be something that sorts itself on its own in a few months. 

I'm going to pop this over to the nap board as it's really more of a nap question than a pu/pd question. 

[*Jo*]

Hi there, if you can post your routine there may be something we can look at

[linsysunshine]

Hi everyone and thanks so much for your replies.

We have been using the suggested schedule from p. 25 of the big blue and white book. Although we try to stick with the schedule, today was a particularly difficult day and by the end of it her A time was pretty short. I should also mention that she is breast fed and VERY sensitive to light. Draping a blanket over her (comfortably) while being held is about the only thing that will stop her from looking around.

Day starts at 7

E 7
A 7h15
S 8h15     She never has a hard time falling asleep here but always wakes 45 min into nap.

E 10
A 10h15
S 11h15   Falls asleep less well here. Husband tried a long pat shh today (1 hour) and then let her sleep on his chest.

E 1
A 1h15
S 2h15    Again, pat sh over an hour. Finally I rocked her. I'm a sucker, I know.

E 4
A 4h15
S 5h15   Tried to get her down for her cat nap but failed miserably.

E 6
A 6h15
S 6h45   She did go down alright for this one.

E 8        She actually just got up for this one on her own.
A           None
S           Straight to bed after feed.

I should mention that today she had a more difficult time going down for naps than usual. I suspect gas (kicky legs, screaming while little toots squeeze out). I have cut out all dairy, chocolate, onions, garlic and cabbage and it has done wonders with her gas. She no longer screams for hours and hours a day. This morning I thought to test a brownie ... never again.

Also, we start the wind-down routine (a good swaddle and walking through the house with her upright for 10 minutes) about 20 minutes before we want her to sleep, so 5 minutes to the hour.

We've been trying the pat shh but I feel as though it keeps her up. I'll do it for a good 20 minutes. Her body will be limp and she'll jiggle like jelly from the pats and right when I'm thinking of stopping I look at her face and her eyes will suddenly be wide open. Kind of creepy. She looks at me as if to say "would you please just let me sleep?" When she does go down well she wakes up 45 minutes into her nap. Aaaah! My husband and I took turns in her room to do as suggested above (wake to sleep) and so started to pat when she stirred but it seemed to wake her even more. This is why I'm inquiring about the PU/PD method. It just seems a little more "straight to the point" but I could be wrong.

Our activity time is pretty low key. She sits in her little bouncy chair or lays on the play mat with little toys hanging. Our house isn't overly noisy although with a 2 year old it's far from a quiet haven. 2 year old is good though and does make an effort to tone down his excitement when playing with his trucks.

I'd also like to say thank you for all the posts. You are all wonderful and it's so appreciated to read a response right when I'm about to pull my hair out.

[mimi1017]

There a few things that I see in my opinion that would be worth thinking about....I notice you posted that her second nap was at 11:15am from a 9am wakeup from first nap? If so, then sounds like she was having a hard time because she was OT.  I found that if the first or second nap of the day was bad, then the rest of the day would be difficult because she would accumulate OT.  The other thing I notice by what you describe, is that depending on the type of baby she is, she may be prone to becoming overstimulated easily.  Tracy mentions in her book that even those hanging toys on the playing mats could be too much for some babies.  Another thing, is that at this age, try to really look for cues when she is sleepy, usually by the first yawn and wind down about 10 mins. and put her down.  I made the mistake at first to follow BW suggested routines to the T and it was driving me crazy, one because I was trying to BF and didn't realize my dd wasn't latching on too well so she was hungry and would wake up withing 45 mins. and I thought there was something wrong with her sleep...I was trying to look at the clock too much, and two by following the suggested routines I would sometimes miss her sleep window and have a hard time settling her.  Also, I read in one of Tracy's interview that when a baby takes a 45 min. nap, their next A time may be about 45 mins. because they didn't take a good nap to last them through a bit longer, so it keeps repeating itself with short naps.  The key is to look for cues to not OT them, so they don't short nap.  How is she when she wakes up? calm, crying? do you DF? are you having any NWs? Is she in her own crib in ther own room? Darkened room? White noise? This may be some information to help others to better help you. 

You seem to really be committed to getting your dd on a routine, which is wonderful, because thanks to EASY I have a great sleeper (with a few problems here and there that neeeded tweaking, but nothing impossible).

[linsysunshine]

Thanks Mimi.

When she wakes after 45 minutes from a nap she's cranky and crying but when she does manage to get a good sleep she wakes up as happy as can be.

I'm sorry but I don't know what DF is or NW. Oh! is DF dream feed? If so then yes.

During the day she sleeps in the crib in her brother's room as it's nice and dark. At night she sleeps in my room (and she does sleep decently at night) as I just find it easier to feed her when she's close by in the middle of the night. I'd nap her in her bed in my room during the day but it's far too bright and we have giant windows that would be too difficult to cover properly. As for white noise, I leave the bathroom fan on when she naps as it sends a nice sound through the house.

I'm wondering if perhaps I'm missing her window. It could be that I'm starting her wind-down too late. I'll play with that tomorrow. I'm wondering, though, if putting her down earlier I'd have to expect her to sleep until her next feed which would mean a 2 1/2 hour nap (having her wake at her next feeding). Isn't that too long a nap for a 2 month old? I don't want her to wake up too much before her meal as it would put the A time before food... I've tried to feed her more frequently, put her on a 2 1/2 schedule but I found she did more snacking that way and woke more at night... not the goal here. 3 hour schedule gets her eating nice full meals.

I feel like I've digressed and am no longer talking about PU/PD. Sorry.

[mimi1017]

Oh that's ok...many times you'll find that you think is one thing, but then turns out to be a combination of a few things.  NW means night wakings.  I believe it is ok to let them sleep as much as possible, but nothing past 2 hours, so it doesn't rob their night sleep and most important so they don't miss a feeding, which you are right, it should be every three hours.  Let us know how it worked out by shortening her A (activity) time and starting the wind down earlier.

[*Jo*]

dont worry about not being a PU/PD issue, as Mimi said you think its one thing and its actually another, it is a good idea to not let them sleep past two hours but i often let Caleb "catch up" on one nap if the other was horrendously short, as long as its not happening too often and she is still getting her recommended amount of day sleep so that it doesnt cut into the night sleep you should be fine

[linsysunshine]

So, we've been putting her down for her naps right at the first yawn and further limiting stimulation. It's worked and now she goes down for her naps without a problem - within 10 minutes.

Our big problem remains her waking 40 minutes into her naps. She's extremely sensitive to visual stimulation and although her room is dark she wakes, opens her eyes and looks about. We have to pick her up, pop her soother back in and drape a blanket over her to block out all visual. Her eyes close instantly and she's asleep within minutes. But, she wakes up 15 minutes later... repeat above and 15 minutes later she's awake again and again until it's time to feed. I'm at a loss. I'm also worried about slipping into accidental parenting.

Regarding NW she wakes for a feed at 4 as the book says she will. She'll wake also at 1am when she doesn't feed well at her DF (sometimes I just can't wake her enough to eat enough) but that's only occasionally.

You guys are wonderful.

[anielasmommy]

this doesnt solve you sleep problem but my DD had really horrific gas and i started taking a probiotic (the phillips one) and its done wonders for her. i didnt even have to change my diet and she hardly ever has one toot anymore lol and she hasnt been having stomach pain which is why i too it in the first place. her stomach would hurt her so bad she would just be miserable and it was the saddest thing ever.

[linsysunshine]

We've been giving her Baby Gaia probiotics and I agree, it's done WONDERS. Unfortunately she still gets her bouts of gas though. My midwife said that it's probably because she's gained so much weight in such little time (4 pounds in 2 months)... so much food to digest.

I've been reading other posts and I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I've putting her to sleep when she's under tired. Assuming awake time includes feed (does it on the site? I never know.), she's awake often only 40-50 minutes before her first yawn. Sometimes only 30 minutes. Does anyone think she might be under tired or am I totally off?

[*Jo*]

awake time does include feeds,  A time is "eyes open to eyes closed" and yes 40 min naps usually mean UT. she should be staying awake an hour and 15 mins for her age

how dark is her room? we use a block out blind to block out ANY light as Caleb was the same, he would play with the patterns on his sheet if he could see them!!!

[mimi1017]

I agree, I actually started wind down routine after first yawn for about 10 mins in a semi dark room, then put her down. It is tricky getting the right time, now it's about gettingg the right timing, but watching for cues is key. Like pp said, if she is sensitive to stimulation keep it very dark, no night lights, or light coming from a door way either. Keep doing a great job and let us know how it works out.

[linsysunshine]

We've increased her A time and I feel like she's sleeping a bit better (or maybe I'm just handling it better today). She still has a hard time transitioning. Every now and then she has her nap in her car seat as we have to step out. She seems to transition fine in there. Would it be a bad idea to teach her to transition in the car seat and when she has transitions down, go back to naps in her crib or is that just trouble waiting to happen?