Ladies, please look at our routine - 22 mo old started to nap short

[olivetshka]

Hello ladies :-)
I've been here for a while now and always got some great words from you, which helped me a lot.
Things seems to be ok, since we had terrible time during 2-1 transition, but I might need you to look at our routine. Maybe it needs tweaking?...
Amelia will be 22 mo old soon and she's an independend sleeper since she was 4 mo old. We had bigger and smaller problems with sleeping, but finally we got them straightened out.

Our routine used to look like this:

7.30 woke her up, if not, she could sleep till 8 or even longer.
1.30/2 pm - 3/3.30 nap (1,5 hrs nap - always)
around 8 bedtime (after 4,5 hrs/ 5 hrs of A time)

It looks pretty exhausting this morning A time, right? 6 or even 6.5 hrs sometime...
But she was ok with that and we had always 1,5 hrs nap and great nights without a peep till 7.30 or even 8 am...

Since few days she started to falls asleep longer. When put into bed after 6 hrs of A time, she'll talk for additional 30 mins or so.
The same thing in the evening. She's in bed around 8 and usually falls asleep at 8.30 or even 8.45 pm - which is way too late for that age.
Her naps are more tricky, too. She used to sleep 1,5 hrs and now it's 1hr 15 mins or 45 mins. Sometimes she falls back to sleep on her own, sometimes I have to walk in there and stand by the crib with my hand on her.
Nights used to be perfect - she's been sleeping thru for all night long without a peep. And even when she woke up, she sent her back to sleep immediately. I had to wake her up in the morning, and now she's up at 7 am or little bit earlier. Tonight we had NW, little bit crying, but she sent herself back to sleep.
What should I do?
I can't make her A time any longer, cause it's far too long for that age already...
Should I slowly shorten the morning A time? Like 10 or 15 mins? And lenghten afternoon A time till 5,5 hrs?...
I'll be appreciate for any advice.

[becky1969]

Any sign of teeth?

[olivetshka]

Hi Becky ;-)
Nope, I don't think so... But maybe I'll check tomorrow again, just to make sure.
Do you have something in your mind, besides teeth?
She was asleep tonight again at 9

[becky1969]

Teeth is the first thing that came to mind that my change sleep habits.

You're right, that first stretch is really really long.  And it's possible that she's either fighting illness or teething and that's making her more tired than normal.  I'd back the nap up to 5.5 hours A time max and see how she does there for 3 days.  Can't hurt! And it may even work! 

Toddlers are funny creatures.  They've got so much going on emotionally, physically, intellectually that they can shorten their A times from time to time.  It's possible she needs to just back up on her As for a little while as her body goes thru whatever changes it's attempting.

That's where I'd start, anyway! 

[olivetshka]

I've been trying shorter A time for 5 days now and no luck.
First day I did 5.45 A time and she went down easily within 10 mins.
The second day I did 5.45 A time and she started to fuss after about 30 mins. Then she started to cry and she was calling me "mommy, mommy". After a longer while I had to go up there and stay with  her, by the crib with my hand on her head.
The same was on 3-rd and 4-th day. She was laying there for so long, that I just went there to help her to fall asleep.
Today is the 5-th day and she's been doing the same exact thing. She seems ok while I'm leaving, but after some time she starts to complain. And it's after 2 pm and she's still not sleeping up there. She's been laying there one hour

After 2nd day I realized that she probably wants to manipulate me. She's in the middle of her Terrible Twos right now and she doesn't know exactly what she wants - she throws herself on the floor and cry histerically, says "NO!" almost to everything.
And after 2 days when I was there for her, she probably wants me to do it everyday when nap time comes...
She's ok with bedtime, nothing have changed here (fingers crossed it will stay like that).

I can hear her doing some talking and she seems not sleepy at all.
I was there already 2 times now - try to do wi/wo, and probably I'll go up there once more just to help her to fall asleep again...
And maybe she's really strong girl and she does need longer A time?...
Maybe tomorrow I'll try 6 hrs again...

[becky1969]

You didn't shorten A time enough.  Like I said in my previous post I would do 5.5 MAX , and I'd be inclined to try 5 hours.  You're getting the same reactions you got at her old A time, aren't you?  Basically having trouble falling asleep.

I don't think 'strong' has anything to do with A times,  , there's just kind of natural limits for children.  Now, I'm sure there are some 22 month olds who can do 6.5 hours A time, but they are very very rare.  And since we've been trying that A and it's been backfiring our only option really is to shorten A as lengthening it would be just off the charts unusual!

Let's back up to around 5h15 to compromise (cuz I know that's going to freak you out!!) and see how she does for a couple of days.  If no go, then you can try 6h A if you want. 

[olivetshka]

You didn't shorten A time enough.  Like I said in my previous post I would do 5.5 MAX , and I'd be inclined to try 5 hours.  You're getting the same reactions you got at her old A time, aren't you?  Basically having trouble falling asleep.

I don't think 'strong' has anything to do with A times,  , there's just kind of natural limits for children.  Now, I'm sure there are some 22 month olds who can do 6.5 hours A time, but they are very very rare.  And since we've been trying that A and it's been backfiring our only option really is to shorten A as lengthening it would be just off the charts unusual!

Let's back up to around 5h15 to compromise (cuz I know that's going to freak you out!!) and see how she does for a couple of days.  If no go, then you can try 6h A if you want. 

I did 5.45 A time only because I have some sentence in my mind from this board, that you have to adjust A times kind of slowly - every 10-15 mins, not 30 mins at once.
I thought that 30 mins could be a huge difference for her.
And yes, I'm freaking out, while I'm thinking she's rather not pretty sleepy after 5 hrs of A time

My friend's son, who is 23 mo old now, started to refuse going to sleep at night. He was always a good sleeper and after just even 4 - 4,5 hrs of A time he took always a nice, long 2 hrs nap. Suddenly he started to fall asleep not around 9 pm, but 11 pm. She didn't let him nap for few days, just to see how it goes. He was terribly tired before 5 pm, that she just cut his nap from 1,5 hrs to 1 hr. And the problem is gone.
I thought maybe Amelia does need longer A time and shorter nap? She doesn't seem mad when I woke her few times after just one hour...
But that's just my thoughts, and they're probably insane
I'll see tomorrow - maybe I'll try that 5.15 hrs.
Maybe
Thanks Becky.

[becky1969]

Well, it's absolutely possible your LO is ready to give up the nap before 2.  It's not too typical, but it happens!

I think I'd try the shorter A first.  If that utterly backfires, you can shorten the nap.  However, you're problem is at nap time she doesn't want to sleep.  To me she really does sound OT.

[olivetshka]

I did 5.30 of A time. For 2 days she went down ok for nap and it lasted 1,5 hr, on the third day with the same A time she slept 1h10 mins. - fall asleep without my help.
Sundays nap lasted 1 hr, but yesterday she couldn't fall asleep, was laying there 1 hr, I went there to help her to fall asleep, but it took quite long, too. She was clearly OT at the end and slept only 45 mins. She was crying after woke up, but didn't want to go back to sleep.
During bedtime she had problems falling asleep, sha was calling me, crying and screaming. I was there and noticed she had problems switching the stage of sleep cycle - couldn't move on to another level. She immediately could open her eyes and wanted to stand up. I had to lay her down again and put my hands on her to hold her a bit. Finally she was sleeping - at 9 pm, an hour after she was put into bed.
My brother and his family were spending weekend with us. His 14 mo old son - I could always tell he was sleepy. His eyes had this special "tired look".
When you look at Amelia, it's rather hard to tell, if she's sleepy, or just bored Her eyes would look like  her cousins maybe after 7 or 8 hrs of A time. When she was younger and we had this terrible 2-1 switch, she could sleep 30 mins per whole day and she seemed to be ok.
So maybe it's true, she needs longer A time.
I'll observe her for additional few days and will see.
Today I'll try 5.30 A time again.

[becky1969]

Most toddlers don't show sleepy signs.  My son certainly doesn't! If I waited for him to look tired, he never would! My son is almost 4 and some days we skip naps on purpose, and he never acts tired, not even when I'm putting him to bed.  Yet, when I offer him a nap on other days he'll sleep 2.5-3 hours easily.  So, waiting for tired signs isn't probably useful with this child.

I think 5.5 worked for 2 days because it was less than what she was used to, then her body adjusted and you need to back down again! I seriously would try 5h and see what happens.  I think maybe you've just been misreading her -- sure she can go without naps or go with short naps, but it's biting you in the butt long term.

Give 5h15 a try and see what happens.  I think you might be surprised!

[olivetshka]

Thanks Becky.
For the last two days she's been giving me 45 mins naps after 5,5 hrs of A time.
Doesn't 45 mins mean UT? :-)
And seriously I'll try less A time today.

[olivetshka]

I did 5,15 hrs of A time and the nap was short again :-( 55 mins only.

[becky1969]

Ah, but we got a longer nap on less A time!    That's encouraging!! Go 5h and see what happens.


Given that she WAS doing 6.5 hours, I don't think the 5h15 nap is showing UT.  With that big of a difference in A time, she should have refused the nap altogether if she was truly UT at the lower A time.  so I think we're getting really close to her happy spot!  And, coincidentally, that matches what her peers are doing at this age.

[olivetshka]

I count A time from wake time till put into bed - is it correct? Because it takes few moments until she's asleep - sometimes longer, sometimes less, but average it's 20-30 mins.
Yesterday night and the whole Sunday she had fever - got it from her sister probably. She was up before 7 am and her A time was longer than usual - in bed at 6 hrs of A time. Terribly tired, but asleep in minute. Nap was longer - 1 hr 15 mins.
Today in bed at 5,15 hrs and nap was around 50 mins again.
I'll be watching her and praying for her to get better.

[becky1969]

No, A time is from moment they open eyes until THEY FALL ASLEEP.  So, if it's taking 20-30 min that means your A is actually 20-30 minutes LONGER than you've been calculating.

Illness means all bets are off! But I'd try earlier rather than later.  A long nap when sick isn't uncommon b/c they're just worn out.  When sick most kids need shorter As anyway.  So go with the 5h (and that means from awake to asleep!) and see what happens.