8 weeks old, still issues with naps!!

[Whatbit]

Hi,
My LO is now 8 weeks old and we've been doing EASY since he was born.  His sleep at night has settled down nicely but during the day I still feel like we're having issues and it doesn't seem to be getting better.  He cries whenever I put him down to sleep (even at night) but at night he sleeps a good chunk and during the day he's been waking up after 30-50 min and then I can't get him back to sleep with sh/pat.  Here's yesterday/ today:

E- 9:45pm
A- none
S- lots of crying and screaming.  He was OT because of a last minute Dr. appointment regarding BF that interrrupted his evening nap.  Finally asleep at 11pm.

E- 4am
A- none
S- took until 5am!  He drifted off and then woke up a few times before he would actually settle back down.  This has happened a lot in the last week.

E- 7:30am (gave the extra 30 min because of all the crying)
A- Diaper change & play mat
S- put him down at 8:30, took until 9 for him to fall alseep.  Woke up at 9:40 and wouldn't go back down.

E- 10:30
A- diaper change in dim light and some cuddling.  Didn't want to overstimulate because he'd been up already for almost a hour
S- by 11:15, with crying of course

E- 1:30
A- looking in the mirror, diaper change
S- around 2:30 in stroller out doing errands.  Arrived home and tried to transfer to crib.  Woke up at 3:45 and wouldn't go back down.

E- 4:30
A- diaper change, play mat
S- by 5:15 (with crying).  Woke up at 5:50, wouldn't go back down- in kangaroo until 7pm

I'm frustrated that he still cries so much when I put him down (after 8 weeks on EASY, shouldn't it be improving?) and by the short naps.  I've read that 45 min naps are classwic signs of OT, but he's often been doing that after a great nap followed by a full feed and a reasonable A time... I've been crying along with him lately too because I don't know what to do for him. 

[~Sara~]

Hi hon...I'm sorry that you've been having a rough time, both of you *hugs* Hang in there!  We're here to help

Have you tried lengthening his A time?  Many LOs his age can do about 1h15-1h20 A.  That means from eyes open to eyes shut, and includes eating, any activities, and wind down.

He might be crying because he's not ready to go to sleep yet, and gives you those UT (undertired) naps as a result.  Then, as the day goes on with the short naps, he can't handle as much A time and so then becomes OT by the time night rolls around.  Another thing to consider is overstimulation (OS)--it sounds like you've got a good handle on that, though, but that may be a cause for short naps when you've been out running errands.

How are you doing the shh/pat?  How long are you doing it for?  What does his wind down routine look like?

At his age, 40-50 minute naps are typically a sign of UT; whereas 25-35 minute naps are OT.  That's a general rule of thumb, so some babies don't fit that.  My guess is, though, that he's UT.  Try lengthening out his A time by 5-10 minutes every couple of days until he's easy to settle and takes a good nap.

[Whatbit]

Hi Sara,

Thanks.  Last night completely sucked so I'm trying to start afresh this morning.  He woke up shortly before 6 and ate, then played on his mat while DH and I ate breakfast.  We put him down at the 60min mark and he had his eyes cloase by 7:20.  Hopefully he stays asleep for longer than 45 mins!  He didn't yawn until he was in his crib, so maybe we timed it right.  About 2 weeks ago I though last that maybe his A time was too short and was trying to extend it already then.  It did seem to help and then things unravelled again.  Maybe I upped it too fast or made it to long...  I was trying to go for the 1 hr 15 minute A.

Our routine is this:
Eat, diaper (sometimes clothes too) change, activity.  Once he starts to show tired signs we take take him into his room and get him ready for bed (Aussie swaddle during the day and sleep sack at night) in dim light.  Then he gets rocked or walked a bit to calm down for a few minutes (usually cries once he's been swaddled or put into his sleep sack) and his eyes start to droop.  Into the crib he goes on his back or side and then sh/pat until asleep.  This part takes anywhere form 15 minutes on a great day, to 60 minutes on a really bad one (maybe those are the times he's UT?).  My sh is a "shh, shh, shhhh".  My DH does the same thing if he's the one putting DS down.

2 questions:

1)  If he wakes up after 30 minutes because he's OT, what is the best thing to do?  If sh/pat doesn't work after a reasonable length of time, is it ok to kangaroo him so he gets at least  bit more rest?  If he wakes up after 45 minutes or so because he was UT, what's the best thing to do?  If he seems wide awake I've sometimes unwrapped him after the sh/pat didn't work to put him back to sleep and changed his diaper and walked around the house talking with him to try and get him closer to his next feed time.  That's also when I cut his next A time short to compensate... I need some direction here.

2)  What do I do in the middle of the night when he seems wide awake after eating?  I let him go as long as he can during the night and get up when I hear him make his firt crying noise to feed him.  I don't talk to him, change his diaper or even take him completely out of his sleep sack but...

Thanks for your help.  I really want to make this work and have a happy baby and be a happy mom.

Stefanie

[Whatbit]

Ahhh!  Woke up exactly 30 min later (7:50)!  Tried to sh/pat him back to sleep and thought I might have succeeded and then he started screaming around 8:25.  I tried picking him up and rocking him but he just kicked his swaddle, screamed and shoved his covered fist into his mouth and gnawed on it.  At 8:45 I fed him since the crying had been non-stop and was starting to sound hungry.  I kept things very low key after that, like yesterday and only burped him and changed him and put him back down.  It's 9:30.  I guess I'll try cutting back to 1 hr 15 min for the next A time after a good nap to see if that makes a difference. 

[~Sara~]

Hi Stefanie

I guess I'll try cutting back to 1 hr 15 min for the next A time after a good nap to see if that makes a difference.

Yes, it sounds like 1h20 is a bit too long for him.  Try the 1h15 A after a good nap.

About 2 weeks ago I though last that maybe his A time was too short and was trying to extend it already then.  It did seem to help and then things unravelled again.  Maybe I upped it too fast or made it to long...  I was trying to go for the 1 hr 15 minute A.

It might have just been too soon for him, but I think he's ready to make the jump now.

Re: your wind down routine--it sounds good!  And you know when you've hit his sleep window juuuust right because of how easy he goes down with the shh/pat.  Just a suggestion about the swaddle, have you tried calming him down and getting him drowsy first, then swaddling him, and then start the shh/pat?  He might not get so worked up then.  But I don't want to mess with a good thing, so take that for what it's worth

When he's fighting the shh/pat, I would say that, yes, his sleep window was missed (could be UT or OT) or he's OS.

1)  If he wakes up after 30 minutes because he's OT, what is the best thing to do?

The best thing to do when you know it's a short nap due to OT is to try and extend.  Like you said, use the shh/pat.  If he's settling but crying again, back and forth, keep doing it until he's asleep.  If he's just not having any of it, try picking him up, calming him on your shoulder/in your arms with the shh/pat and transition him like that back into the crib.  This isn't the same as PU/PD...just to allay any fears.

If you know that he really, really needs the sleep and you don't feel like you can get him back on track for the rest of the day if he doesn't get a good snooze in right then, then yes, I think doing some APOP (accidental parenting on purpose) is okay.  Then for the next nap, just go right back to the usual way of doing things

For UT naps, you've got the right idea!!  You can try to extend by using shh/pat.  But, personally, I have very, very low success rate at extending an UT nap.  You can try to extend for the rest of the S time--who knows...your LO might go back to sleep.  Or, you can just leave him in his crib to hang out for a bit, if he's content to be there.  Or, you can get him out and do low-key activity until the next E time.  Regardless of whichever of these you decide to do, after his E, you'll HAVE to put him to bed sooner.  So, keep in mind that his A time will be from when he wakes up early, through the E, and just after.  If you need to feed him a bit earlier just so that he won't be awake too long, go ahead.

2)  What do I do in the middle of the night when he seems wide awake after eating?

As odd as this might seem while you're doing it, you lay him back down and...leave him to see how he does.  He might drift back off on his own.  If he starts fussing/crying, then shh/pat him.  Of course, it really all depends on WHY he's not going back to sleep after his feed; but considering the situation, I think it's because he needs more A time during the day and so his body is making up for it at night.  Unfortunately when it's that kind of NW, shh/pat isn't going to send him back to sleep any faster (believe me, been there, done that!).

When he wakes up at night, it's a good idea to get into the habit of hanging back and not rush in at the first sound he makes.  It's incredibly hard to do as a first time parent, especially when your LO is so young.  I don't mean letting him cry it out, but sometimes LOs wake up, fuss, and then go back to sleep.  By hanging back and listening, you can learn his cries better (hungry versus self-soothing fussing versus wet diaper, etc.), plus there's a smaller chance that you'll become a prop to just put him right back to sleep.

That seriously has been one of the most difficult things for DH and I to learn.  You know how it is when you're dead asleep and suddenly at 3 am, you hear crying!  It's very disorienting.

Just as a parting note: I think you're doing a FABULOUS job!!!  You pretty much answer your own questions, lol.   Keep trusting your instincts...you are a true Baby Whisperer, and your baby is indeed a very lucky one

[Whatbit]

It's not working, Sara!  He had the worst OT day ever on Friday.  He woke up after 30 minutes after every nap.  I had to APOP him twice to get him some sleep, including a 2 hour walk in outside in the cold.  He was a bit better the next day but was still waking early.  Today he had barely slept at all.  He cries EVERY time I try to put him down too... has since day 1.  In every other way but sleeping he seems really textbook.  Sigh.  Thanks for your encouragement though.  Tomorrow is another day... 

[~Sara~]

Hmmm...could you post what his day looked like yesterday?

Also, do you think he might have reflux?  Have a look through this and see if anything pops out at you:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0

If anything there sounds like it might fit your LO's behavior, then I would talk to your ped and see what you can do.

If you want to try some preventative measures in the meantime, then keep him elevated for 20 minutes after his feed, and you might want to slightly raise one side of his crib mattress...I'm just wondering if he's waking up every 30-50 minutes because of reflux and then he can't get back to sleep because he's uncomfortable; and if he's crying when you lay him down because he associates his crib with pain??  This is merely conjecture, but couldn't hurt to look into it, right?

Also, could you describe his sleeping environment: is there any white noise, is it really dark?  Is he in his own room, or in your room?

Will wait to see his routine, and we'll go from there.  *hugs*  I'm sorry he had such a rough day, poor little man.  Give him some extra cuddles from me

[Whatbit]

E- 4 am
A- dirty diaper change
S- by 5 with lots sh/pat.  Woke up at 6.  Cuddled him with me until 7

E-7am
A- activity mat
S- in bed by 50 min mark; no sleep- cried on and off (mostly on, and very loudly) until 9:30

E- 9:30am figured he was really hungry from all the screaming
A- diaper change
S- by 10:15ish after 20 min of sh/pat.  Woke up at 11:00  My dad, visiting for my b-day (and very much informed of BW) tried to pat him back to sleep with no success.  Ended up holding and walking him until next feed. 

E-12:30
A- laid on his blanket while we ate lunch.  Wasn't crying but could tell he was really tired.
S- in stroller being walked by grandma and grandpa from 1:15 to 3:30.

E- 3:30
A- black and white pictures to stare at
S- tried to put him to sleep by 1 hr 15 min mark.  Slept for 30 min and then wouldn't go back down.

E- 5:30
A- bath
S- tried to put him down right away while he was still relaxed from his bath (he really likes baths and smiles the whole time).  No sleep.  Cried and cried and cried.  Took him out of his room and put him on a blanket- stopped crying and laid there contentedly...

E- 8:00
A- none
S- by 8:45 was really sleepy and relaxed and went down fast but woke up after 30 min!!! 

E- 10:00
A- none
S- by 10:50 and then was out for the night.  Woke up at 6:00am this morning.  He's never gone that long before....

Anyways, that was yesterday. Friday and Saturday were pretty similar.  No, I don't think he has reflux.  He used to spit up a lot, but doesn't anymore (I do keep him upright for quite a while after eating) and none of the other symptoms seem to apply.  He's absolutely fine on the floor on his back or even in his crib on his back.  It's really when we try to put him to sleep.  He's in his own room- has been since he was 2 wks old.  He has curtains on the windows that are quite dark.  At night, I can't even see int here unless I leave the hallway light on and leave his door open a crack while I put him down.  During the day, it's a bit lighter because there's a bit of a crack near the top, but it's the drakest room in the apartment.  I usually have soft music playing the in the house, but nothing in his room.  We've tried the bathroom fan since the bathroom is right next to his room and that doesn't seem to have made any difference.

We'll see how today goes...  So far, it took DH and I from 6:55 until 8:00 to get him to sleep for his first nap of the day.

Stefanie   

[BABSMOM]

Stefanie,

I'm knew to the BW site and your posts immediately caught my eye.  If it makes you feel any better, I have an 8 week old who is having nap issues as well.  So my days seem to be going about the same as yours lately.

You're a little ahead of the game though.  I did not become aware of the BW until he was 5 and 1/2 weeks old.  We started EASY at 6 weeks by making a few tweaks to what we were already doing and noticed a big difference in his night sleep almost immediately, but naps have been a challenge.

We have been using his yawns as a trigger to go to sleep but most of his naps are only 45 minutes.  I can set my watch my it.  Occasionally we'll get a 1 1/2 - 2 hour nap.  Then on Friday we started to notice that it was getting harder to put him to sleep.  Over the past three days it's gotten harder.  It's exhausting investing 30-45 minutes with shh/pat to get a 45 min nap several times a day.  If we're lucky its a 45 min nap sometimes it's only 30.

As the BW reiterated several times EASY is a routine not a schedule, I didn't focus on the total A time.  He'll eat every 3 hours (some times a little less, some times a litte more) then diaper change and activity then winddown to sleep when he starts yawning.  I've been so focused on him being OT that I didn't think about UT.  I'll have to watch his A time more closely and make tweaks.

Very interested in your progress.  Just know there's someone going through the same thing.

Lynda

[Whatbit]

Hi Lynda,
It's 'good' to know that there is someone else out there with a similar issue!  How's it going today?  I just spent most of the morning trying to get naps out of DS.  The first nap was 30 minutes and I just finished spending and hour trying to get him down for his second nap.  And I live in a Co-op apartment complex and today is smoke detector checking day!!  So, it's not exactly quiet at the moment  

Sara,
I tried making his room darker by taping the curtains to the wall.  We're going to see is Dr. next week for his 2 month check- up.  I guess I'll talk to her about the possibility fo reflux, but I don't understand why he would sleep at night if that was the issue.  The idea of him being in pain hurts my heart... 

Stefanie

[~Sara~]

No, I don't think he has reflux

Okay, just thought I'd throw that out there.  Some LOs are silent refluxers (don't spit up) but still experience the pain.

Sounds like his room is set up great, too!

How about we try decreasing his A times a bit and see if he's any easier to settle.  So, try for about 5 minutes less and see how he does.  It could make all the difference, maybe he wasn't ready for a full 1h15.

What was yesterday like for him?

[~Sara~]

Just had another idea...when he does go down for a nap, have you tried doing wake to sleep or holding through the jolts to see if that works?  It might be that he's just waking up while making the sleep cycle transition, and instead of you waiting for him to wake up, you work at keeping him asleep.

Here's a link describing these:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

[Whatbit]

Hi Sara,
I was at a BF support group today and was talking to a couple of nurses and they think he might have reflux (he hasn't been gaining much weight over the past few weeks and there's nothing wrong with my supply and he's eating 8 times/day really well)...  apparently it can look like colic or be in addition to colic in some babieand be more silent (as you mentioned) so it's harder to detect.  Since we thought he has colic and took him to the chiro and saw improvement, reflux never entered my mind.  I just thought he was having issues with OT or UT or OS or something.  Also, since we haven't had a single good day since I started posting this thread (15 min naps today!!)  I'm going to try a few things, like inclining his mattress and holding him upright longer after his feeds to see if that makes a difference (we're going to the Dr. next week, so I'll have to wait until then to see if meds are a go).  I'll also try doing a 1 hr 10 A.  I have been holding him during the jolts while he's laying in his crib- sometimes it works and other times he's been waking up at that point crying. If it is reflux, that would explain a lot, like why he hasn't been getting any better with sh/pat.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.  I wouldn't have even though to ask them if you hadn't put a bug in my ear about it.

[~Sara~]

I hope reflux is the key to get this sorted out, even though it's hard to see your LO go through something like that, knowing is half the battle, right?

In the meantime, you can try to do some things like we'd mentioned (elevated mattress, etc.), but might I make another suggestion?  Don't worry about sleep training so much for the next little while.  Just focus on getting him to sleep, to help him feel rested.  If the mattress elevating works, superb!  If not, and he sleeps best in his car seat, in a swing, or being held for a while, go with it.  Then, once you've seen the doctor, if it's not reflux/colic, you can ease back into sleep training, and a few days of catching him up on sleep will do him--and you and DH--good

Let me know how the mattress tweaking and keeping him upright more works out, would you?

*hugs*  You are doing a great job.

[Whatbit]

Hi Sara,
I was able to move my LOs Dr. appointment up a week so we saw her today.  I fed him right before the appointment, so she was able to see how much DS spit up and hear his cries.  That plus other symptoms on the list led to a positive reflux diagnosis and we now have a prescription for Zantac.  I hope it kicks in fast, but I've read on the reflux board it can take a week or so sometimes!! 
Anyways, the mattress elevation has helped a bit- I can still get some 30 min naps out of him (a combo of OT and discomfort I'm sure).  The best naps have been him vertical against me- not ideal but hopefully the Zantac will help keep the discomfort level down and I can lay him down with less screaming.  He did sleep for 5 hrs last night so at least I got one good sleep for both of us (and DH).  I'll take your advice about just getting him to sleep, no matter how for now.  I just dread ruining any good habits we did have... 8 weeks worth of trying!!! I guess him being scared of sleeping due to pain is something we'll have to work on now instead, so I'll be busy enough with that.  I don't want him to be freaked out of his crib because of all this.
That's it for now.  I'm going to still try to keep some semblance of an EASY routine and I'll let you know how things are going in a day or so.

Stefanie