Re: sleeping less and less - 16 mo off track

[mmom]

Thanks ladies!  I will let you know how it goes.

[mmom]

Ughhh, he has been in his crib for 20 minutes and is having a party in there.  We are now almost at a 5 hour 40 minute A and it doesn't look like he is settling.  I am not going to get him, but I feel like we are getting a repeat of yesterday.

[mmom]

So finally fell asleep at 12:30, only to wake at 1:30.  What do I do about bed time?

Why is he so miserable every day after waking?  Does anyone else have this issue?  It doesn't matter how short or long the nap is.  We get temper tantrums and absolute misery and have no idea what the problem is.  I used to just throw him in the stroller.  But with the snow, I am not going to be able to do this and I can't be trapped in a house with a miserable kid all the time!!

[Mashi]

Yes, we do have a lot of miserable afternoons here.  Sometimes he is still tired, other days just grumpy in general. I just automatically blame teeth. I blame everything on teeth.  Not sure what I will do when he has them all.....

[deckchariot]

I blame everything on teeth too (and sadly, I'm pretty sure Abby has all of hers, but since I've not counted, I'm sticking with that!).  My guess is that he's just out of sorts until he settles into a better sleeping routine - thus he wakes grumpy.  With a short nap, I wouldn't do more than 5 hr of A time (since it was 5 hr 40 before the nap), but watch him and see, he may need far less than that, and we know he does pretty well with the early bedtime.  Was he happy when you put him down for his nap and was just playing around in there?  It could be that he's ready for a bit more A time....but 5 hrs 40 min was too much so the 1 hr nap was OT.  Or it could be teeth....

[mmom]

DH came home and witnessed the misery and actually called the Ped.  I think DH thought that I was being dramatic when I said this is how he is every day.  Since he has had a cold and has been really erratic with sleep, we brought him in to check his ears.  Of course they were fine - they alway are when we think there is something going on.  But he did see that 2 tips had come through on both top sides of his molars and the bottoms were very swollen.  Also, he was a total ham at the office and when I was telling them he is miserable, he made me look like a liar.  So, like you both, I will keep blaming the teeth too.

It was actually almost a 6 hour A before the nap.  I tried to make it a 5.5 hour A and he played for a while, then started to whine, and then finally went to sleep.  He woke at 6:40 today and didn't fall asleep until 12:30.  I will make sure he is sleeping by 6:30.

[Mashi]

It's always good to take him in anyway - I took DS in last Friday, for me it is a 30 minute walk up a VERY steep hill and it was POURING rain because I wanted his ears checked.  Of course, totally fine!!  Doctor said it was still wise to bring him in, she would always rather see a toddler and say "he's fine" than see a toddler and say "Ummmm that's one pretty bad infection and it looks like it's been looming for weeks!"  KWIM.   

From the tips of the molars cutting through to the point where three of them have fully cut the surface has been at least a month for us.  Sorry to say!  Although my DS is a sloooooooooow teether, so I don't think that is normal, BUT it can be a very long process for the molars to come out.  And, they are the 1yr molars....most LOs get them closer to 12/13 months, so it looks like your LO is a late teether like mine. Which is not a problem but the canines cut at appx 18 months and DS decided to get them early - same time as his molars.  So it is a mess in his little mouth...and due to all of that we have had some drastically reduced A times.  As early as 4hrs of A time some days and that will get me a 2 - 2.5 hour nap. Most days it is closer to 4.5 hours but can swing 30 mins either way.  He seems to be doing 2 naps once every ten days or so, and as long as I don't "enforce" the morning nap on him but only give it to him when he is desperate for it, then he does not refuse his afternoon nap.  To make sure, on a day when he has had a morning nap I take him outside for a food hour of fresh air play to ensure he's tired enough for an afternoon nap!

Just a thought for you to keep in mind....

[mmom]

Mashi, you are such a trooper. I just pictured you pushing the stroller in the pouring rain.  Does not sound like fun.

I put my LO down at 6:10 last night and he didn't fall asleep until 7.  He did the same thing for his nap yesterday.  What does this mean?  We also had a 1.5 hour NW last night.  He woke crying and would only settle and fall asleep while being held.  Every time DH laid him down, he would be standing in and yelling for us within minutes.  He actually tricked us a few times and appeared to be sleeping for longer periods, but he kept waking.  Finally after both of us trying, DH laid on the floor in his room and just kept telling him it was ok and time to go to sleep.  He did and woke at 6:30 this morning.  So decent wake, but not a good night.

Mashi, if you were me and had tried shorter A's without success, would you try again?  I ask because I totally see your point and why it is working for you, but am hesitant because of what happened with my LO.  I want him to be rested, I but i can't find the right method to get that.

[Mashi]

Mashi, if you were me and had tried shorter A's without success, would you try again?

I do.  I absolutely do try again.  For me, UT is easier to combat than OT, and that is my reasoning.   

My DS was on 5h15min of A time, doing very well with it. The teething hit, and this pas week it has been down to 4h15min. Some days that has only gotten me an hour+ nap and I kicked myself but that is easier for me to bounce back from and usually I am kicking myself over the lost ME time.  Today i put him down at 1045 am, which was 4.5 hours ... he slept until 110 pm so it was certainly the right thing to do.  And waking at 110 after a 2+ hour nap will get him to a 630 bedtime - so his day is 615am to 630pm, which is good.  I'd like him to be back on the 7 - 730 that he was on until about a week ago, but there were a few days where I pushed him to get to 5h and it backfired...so it will take me a week to push him back to 7-730 and for my DS that surprisingly means to make his nap EARLIER and not LATER.

I don't think that this is necessarily "the way to do it" - I think this is the way to do it for MY son... I also interpret a LOT of things as tired!  Today he threw his sippy cup (normal) but after he picked it up and put it down nicely (I made him), about two minutes later he walked over to it and for no reason picked it up and threw it.  I said "that's it, off to bed mister!" and he walked around and said good night to all of his toys and got his lovey and walked to his bedroom       I guess I just have it in my head that he's never naughty or mischeivious - he's either tired or in pain.  So he acts like a terror and he gets either pain meds or bed, depending on the clock!

I suppose if I were you, and another couple of days doesn't sort things, then I would be inclined to move the nap earlier, see what happens.....as long as you think you can recover from a short UT nap. If you can't, then don't.

[deckchariot]

Teething sucks.  Seriously, it's awful....and don't even get me started on the 2yr molars (aren't you excited to hear that?!).  What are you using in terms of medication?  We found that consistent use of a homeopathic teething tablet all day (we use Hylands) and then Tylenol or ibuprofen 30 min before nap/bedtime really helped.  Then when she woke screaming in the night, we'd give her more meds (if the prior dose had worn off), and tried to keep the APing to a minimum.

We also do shorter A times when she's teething, and it does work.  Even now, she has a cold, and was ridiculously evil yesterday morning, so I put her down for her nap early (5 hrs of A time - usually she does close to 6) and she took a 3 hr nap (I was in HEAVEN!) and then I put her to bed after 4 hrs of A time (and she's still sleeping 11 hrs later).  So I say, he's not sleeping great now, give a shorter A time a try and see - if the nap is crap, early to bed.

posted at the same time - noticed it and still forgot to modify    Mashi's plan sounds good to me.  I'm the same way - recovering from UT is easier than OT for me as well.  But I've got a textbook bub.

[mmom]

Thanks ladies.  We can't use Hylands, because there is lactose in them.  We use Camilius, but I don't see much of a difference.  I was medicating for every nap/sleep, but also stopped because I didn't think my LO was sleeping more because of it.  When he wakes crying, I medicate with motrin and I put teething gel on his gums.  But it takes a while for him to settle.  He just wants to cuddle and I don't want to get into that.  DH said that he screamed and screamed last night and just wouldn't settle, because he wasn't being held.  What do I do in those situations without AP?

I am just so torn about naps.   Why when I put him down is it taking him so long to fall asleep?   Do I interpret that as OT?  UT?  I am willing to try shorter A times.  It is just scary when I get a short nap and then it is so long until bedtime.  My LO is so hard to figure out.

[mmom]

We were at the grocery store this morning and I could see my LO was fading.  So I hurried home and gave him the quickest snack ever and put him down at 4 hours 20 minutes A.  He didn't fall asleep until the 5 hour mark and I actually thought I would have to go in and get him at 1 point.  But he settled and went to sleep.  He slept for just about 2 hours, which is great, considering naps lately.  Do I aim for a shorter A before bed too?

[Mashi]

Much like my day was yesterday!!!  Even though it was still 5h A it could be that it was a bit calmer in getting to that 5 hours?  Do you think? 

AND, amazing with that 2 hour nap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I would do your bedtime 5 to 5.5 hours from when he woke up from nap, which then should be a 12 hour day!!!

[deckchariot]

YAY for a fabulous 2 hr nap!!!!!  Mashi's plan sounds good to me too!  I"m wondering if it takes him so long to fall asleep because he needs that time to "come down" from his day - sort of doing his own wind down.  So on 5 hrs of A time he took a great nap, but needed 20 min on his own to settle.  You might want to try planning for that extra time when you go to put him down.  It could be that he's just so much more aware of his world now that he needs a bit of alone time to process it before he can go to sleep.

In terms of APing and pain...if he's in pain, no amount of sleep training will help.  I'd say just limit it as much as possible - don't rock him to sleep, rock him  a bit if you have to for comfort, but then right back in the bed.  We would actually do the medication in Abby's bed - we never even took her out.  We would hug her over the side of the crib, kiss her and lay her back down for sleeping. Less is more in terms of what you do to comfort, but if he's in pain - comfort him.  Then use gw or wi/wo later to undo what you've done.

[mmom]

Ok, thanks to you both. I will aim for a bedtime of 6:30/6:45 depending on how the evening is going.

I can't give medicine to him in his crib, because he knocks the dropper out of my hands and tries to bat my hand when I go near him. It actually takes 2 of us to give it to him. DH holds him and I shoot it in his mouth.  This is only in the middle of the night when he is upset and wants us to hold him.  We do normally hold him for a few before putting him back down though.  I guess we need to stop that.  We just get no where when he is crying and we try to leave the room.  This turns into a long night.