Is this an EW?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

How do you push the day forward on the front end as you're getting rid of the CN?  I think that would help, since the days he wakes at 5am I just can't get him to bedtime without the CN but I think it's contributing to the EW so then I'm kind of stuck, you know?  This morning I did APOP and fed him at 5am since I knew he was OT from our traveling yesterday and he slept until almost 7.  So I'm on track for today but who knows what tomorrow will bring!

I'm going to try W2S for the 2am feed tonight, we'll see how that goes.  I have a feeling I'm going to have to end up just doing PU/PD and going cold turkey on it but I'm going to try this first to try to avoid the trauma for both of us! 

[Tweakster]

Hi there, Finn was always behind on A time so it was a struggle.  We took forever to get to 2 hr 30 mins for the AM A time and then I had to push even more to get to 2 hr 45.  We had some bad OT and he stayed at 2 hr 45 for a long time.  We had to leave him in his room as crib time when he woke early and counted as 1/2 A time.  We were lucky that he would self-entertain for a short while and he wasn't very mobile so it was very low key A for him.

So:
Awake 5 (count A from 5:15)
Nap #1 8:00 - 9:30 1.5 hrs (A = 2 hr 45)
Nap #2 12 - 1:30  1.5 hrs (A = 2 hr 30)
CN 4 - 4:30 30 mins (A = 2 hr 30) drive, rock, stroller, whatever you need to do
Bedtime asleep by 6 (A = 1.5 hr)

The main thing we found was that Finn could not do a long A after his CN.  He was always tired 1.5 hour to bedtime - mainly due to his early sleep phase and the length of his day.  If we could not APOP the CN until later (like around 5), we would extend bedtime out a bit, but never beyond 7.  We tried once pushing it out in the hopes that he would sleep later in the morning and naturally it backfired big time. Big big mess.

After a couple of days of 2 hr 45 min A for the morning and him adjusting okay, we pushed the middle A. 
So:
Awake 5 (count A from 5:15)
Nap #1 8:00 - 9:30 (A = 2 hr 45)
Nap #2 12:15 - 1:45 (A = 2 hr 45)
CN 4:15 - 4:45 (A = 2 hr 30) drive, rock, stroller, whatever you need to do
Bedtime asleep by 6:15 (A = 1.5 hr)

And back to pushing morning A:
Awake 5 (count A from 5:15)
Nap #1 8:15 - 9:45 (A = 3 hr)
Nap #2 12:30 - 2 (A = 2 hr 45)
Then here is where it went tricky for us.  We did early bedtime.  So we had some days where he was asleep by 5:30 or 5:45.  And we had to keep that last hour very low key with extended bedtime wind down.  In hindsight we needed the CN because we had bad OT.
The other option is to work hard for that CN and continue to push bedtime out a bit.  We never had that luxury - he just would not CN.  If we had to drive him around it took him an hour to fall asleep which was pointless for the CN.

By 7.5 mths he was on 3 hr A time and was used to doing a longer stretch before bed.  It just took time to get him there - a bit rocky but we had been through worse so it was just another day in the life :-)

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hmm.  Interesting.  Thanks for the long post!  Right now I'm doing all the A times the same and I realized today that we're more like 2:45 by the time he's actually asleep.  So I guess I'm closer to 2 naps than I thought.  Today we did that A time and got 2 x 1.5h naps.  He was up from the 2nd nap at 3:15 and I just put him down at 6 (quite peacefully compared to how bedtime has been going so I'm skeptical he's really down!).  I'm worried about a super early morning but I know that I'm not supposed to be!    We'll just have to see, I guess.

Maybe I'll try pushing his first A time to 3 h tomorrow and see how he handles that.  Thanks for the reminder that I don't have to move all the A times at once, I'd forgotten that.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

So what are your thoughts on this - last night was our worst night in weeks!  I just can't figure out why.  Here's how the day looked...

6:45 - up, play with DH
8:30-E
9:00- wind down
9:20-in crib, babbling, whining
9:25- S
11- A
12:10-E
1:20-wind down
1:40-in crib
1:45-S
3:15-A
3:30-E
5:30-wind down, bath, nurse, book, etc
6-in crib, went down without a peep
8:45- awake, screaming bloody murder, tried shh/pat, PU/PD, HTTJ, eventually could get him to sleep for 3-4 minutes but then he would be up screaming again
9:45-finally gave in and fed him, he fell asleep
12:55-awake, screaming, nursed him, not totally sure what I was thinking, I think I thought it was time for his 2am feed, anyway he went back down with the feed
2:45-awake, screaming, shh/pat x 10 min and he was back down
3:30- more screaming, i didn't want to feed again so we did shh/pat, PU/PD, HTTJ again as he screamed and screamed! 
4:35- tried Tylenol in case it was teeth but no real difference
5:15- finally got him to sleep
5:25- awake and screaming again so I finally fed him and he went back down
6:20-up for day, singing in crib
6:40- got him up

AHHH!    I just don't know what that was all about! Was he OT from only 3h of daytime sleep?  But I didn't think I could get the CN in and he went to sleep so beautifully.  I doubt it was teeth since the Tylenol made no difference?  Maybe he's starting a GS and I really should have fed him?  Now I feel bad about that.  But I had cluster fed him in the afternoon so I really didn't think he needed to eat in under 4 hour intervals!   I'm going to feed him more frequently today just in case. 

Any thoughts?  DH was trying to push me in the middle of the night to keep feeding him or just let him CIO but I just didn't think either was the right answer even though I didn't think it was much fun having him scream in my ear all night and not sleep either!

Thanks, Wendy...

[Tweakster]

Hi there, so this is what I see:
A time = 2 hr 40 min = 1.5+ hour nap
A time = 2 hr 45 min = 1.5 hour nap
And then a decent early bedtime which he didn't fight.
So I think he's doing well with A times at 2 hr 45 because you are getting decent naps.  That doesn't mean he can't be pushed out...he may give the same nap at 3 hrs...you will have to take the plunge either in 5 - 10 min increments or 15 if you think he can handle it.

That said, it is a large contrast from his previous amount of day sleep...he might need to be weaned off it slowly because he's mostly Textbook and used to a specific amount of sleep.  It could have been OT...

Frankly, with the fact that he would settle and then wake again I really suspect that he might have been hungry or in pain.  Can you try Motrin before bed?  Motrin usually works better when teething and it lasts longer than Tylenol.  I would give it right before bed and then top him up again if he wakes 6 hours in. 
My money is on discomfort - teething...or hunger - growth spurt (big one at 6 mths). 

You can try to do a later CN...so basically when you were winding him down for bed, you could wind him down into a CN scenario.  And then get him up 30 mins in, do a short A time and then put him to bed a bit later.  This has worked for some and it might reset him a bit.  For us it doesn't work well, Finn uses it as night sleep and so our nights shorten yet again.  It really depends on your LO.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Oh no.    I feel bad that he was trying to tell me he was in pain or hungry and I wasn't listening! I really thought it was OT but now that you say that, it was more intense than even his usual OT.  So if he settles and wakes again quickly, that's a sign that it's discomfort?

We had good naps again today with 2h35-2h40 A time, a little shorter since I knew he was OT from last night.  He got 3.75h total daytime sleep and went to bed with no issues (so far!) at 6:20.  I fed him more frequently today and gave him some Motrin before bed so cross your fingers that one (or both!) of those is going to help!

Thanks for the support.

[Tweakster]

Hi there, don't feel bad.  It's easy to miss when you are caught up in A times, bad naps etc.  Generally I find that if he really won't settle and is awake continually and frequently that something is up.  It's normally either hunger or discomfort for Finn.  We still can't work out which is which since all his cries just sound the same lol.

Let me know how it goes.  Fingers crossed!

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Well that was definitely a better night!  He stayed down until 9:55, which is about normal for him to wake up for the DF.  Then he was up at 1:30, about a half hour earlier than normal, and again at 5 to eat.  The good news is that after the 5am feed he went back down until 7!  He hasn't slept that late in ages.  He must have been recovering from 2 nights ago.

So I do think this is a GS and I'm glad I fed him last night, even though it was definitely more frequent than normal.  My question is this, though, since he does get pretty stuck in a schedule (ie I started out this week thinking I was going to work on breaking the 2am feed habit - ha!), how do I help him through the GS without getting him habituated to a bunch of new NW to eat?  I am trying to feed more during the day today, too, and I started solids yesterday (yay!) but last night he was still hungry. 

I did up his A time this morning to 3 hours, too.  He tolerated it pretty well and went down nicely so we'll see! Hoping I won't get an OT short nap, but keeping my fingers crossed.  Hopefully this will help us say goodbye to the CN.

Thanks. 

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hmm.  I feel like I must be doing something wrong here. 

Here's today...

7- up
8:10-E
9:30-snack
10-S
11:30-A
12:30-E
2:15-S
3-awake, crying, DH did shh/pat
3:15-S
3:50-A
4-E
6:20- in crib, babbling
6:30-S
8:50- awake, crying out, then quiet and looking around, very awake-looking when I'm in there with my hand on his kicking legs, but he screams if I leave
9:35-hungry cry starts, E
9:50-done eating, but won't sleep, same routine as above
10:10- finally S

This is the same waking routine he did the other night but this time he wasn't so upset, just awake.  But I can't imagine he is UT with less than 3 hours of daytime sleep!  So he's OT? But looking all around and just being awake until I try to leave?  I'm confused....   And worried about the rest of the night!

[Tweakster]

Hi there Kate, we are popping out for a 60th birthday party today but I will take a look later on. 

When we pushed Finn's morning A we often had to shorten the middle A a tad when OT built up.  Particularly if he had a bad night.  Even though the first nap goes well the A time preceeding is long and leaves them a bit tired.  I'll explain more later.  How did the rest of the night go?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Hi Wendy-

Hmm. That does make sense.  Just put him down after about 2h40 for the 2nd nap.  He did 3h A time this morning and 1.5h nap again.  Maybe I'll try shortening up the 2nd A time a little tomorrow.

The rest of the night was pretty disastrous.  No more long wakings but he was up at 1 (shh/pat), 1:30 (feed), 3:20 (shh/pat), 4:15 (feed), and 5:15 for the day.  Ahh!  I still feel like this is probably a GS combined with teething (he did get Motrin x 2 last night) but I'm worried we'll get into a whole new NW pattern again.  My old 2 wakings a night doesn't look so bad now!

Hope the party goes well.     Thanks again for your help...

[Tweakster]

Hi there, yes I would shorten for sure.  Especially in the height of teething and with bad NW.  It will cause an OT loop.  I would stop pushing a bit until it settles down.  We had the exact same nightmare at 6 mths :-)

Party was great but Finn had a 5 hour A time lol  Will see what that causes tonight - sometimes you just got to get out though right?  He was a star and social and didn't melt down until we left the party hehe.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Ok, will shorten A's tomorrow.  He did have 2 good 1.5h naps and a 45 min CN (1st time he's CN'd in a few days but he was up so early I had to do it).  Then he went down nicely just after 7 so we'll see what the night will bring!

Should I just feed at the NW at this point since things are so wonky and not worry about getting into a bad pattern?

Glad you had a good day.  What a good kid Finn was to not melt until you left!  Hope you have an ok night, if I'm up a lot I'll be thinking of you! 

[Tweakster]

Hi there, about the feeding...we did.  We really know that if Finn is awake at night it's hunger or discomfort of some kind.  Luckily he doesn't make it habitual.  So to get through the 6 month wonky time, I would err on the side of caution and feed because they really do have their growth spurt and seem to need more food around then.  If he doesn't take much then it probably isn't legitimate hunger and likely it's more for comfort.  6 months I felt like it was almost as bad as infancy again.  But then it passes fairly quickly and they have a big jump in A time and then are on to the 2 naps which makes life easier.

It sounds like he had a good day so hopefully his night goes well!  Fingers crossed for you.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Yes!  It does feel (almost!) as bad as infancy again!  I'm glad you said that, I feel a little like I'm going nuts over here. 

So even after a good nap day yesterday and going down at 7:10 so nicely, he was up at 9:30 (shh/pat), 10:45 (feed), 12:30 (shh/pat), 1:30 (feed), 3:30 (shh/pat but this time took about a half hour to get him back down), 5 (feed), then kind of in and out of sleep every 10 min until 6:15 when I got him up.  He wasn't that upset the times I did shh/pat and most of them it didn't take very long, maybe 5-10 min or so.  This morning I'm wondering if I went in too soon on some of those.

So am I just going on like this and hoping it passes soon? 

I did cut his A time this morning and he went down after 2h40 instead of 3.  If he has a decent nap I'm planning maybe 2h30 or 2h35 for the 2nd A time.  Maybe he was a little OT last night and this might help?