Won't nap in the afternoon - UT or OT?

[yunnage]

I've only recently put my 15 week baby on a 3EASY routine.  Her naps are always short (30-45 min), so we're having a rough time following any kind of routine.  Since Monday, I've committed myself to spending 2 weeks on sleep training (husband is home next week, so my toddler won't interfere!). 

There are a few issues we're having 1) short naps, 2) unsuccessful pm naps, 3) lengthy shh/pat to sleep and 4) conflict when E and S times end up the same due to short naps.


The last two days have been very similar:

E 6:40
A               (Sleepy signs show up really early after her wake up, so A time is short here, but maybe longer better?)
S 7:55-8:40 (45 min nap)
A
E 9:40
A               
S 10:10-11:10 (1 hr nap, which rarely happens. Most naps are less than 45 min)
E 12:10 (earlier than supposed to be because her sleep time would conflict)
A
S 12:40 (attempted to nap her, but after 1 hour of shh/pat, gave up )
A
S 2:20-2:57 (37 min nap)
E 3:15
A
S 6:30

Two night wakings (12/1 and 3/4), no dream feed.  She's on Zantac for reflux, is tightly swaddled, has a sound machine and the room is dark, but we can still fully see each other during the day.

Any ideas as to why the naps are so short and why I can never seem to get that third nap in (her fourth one is probably out of sheer exhaustion).  I've only been doing shh/pat to get her to sleep for a week now (guilty of AP to the max before!), and I'm already finding it exhausting.  She seems to need the full 20 min of shh/pat to get through.  Sometimes I do it for the full 40 minutes in the hopes she'll move onto the next sleep cycle, but she doesn't seem to be able to.  I can't imagine she'll ever be able to fall asleep without me as the prop!  How long does it usually take and why is it sometimes unsuccessful for some naps?

Lastly, she's coming up to 4 months soon and I can't imagine putting her on 4EASY given her short nap times.  I'm sure she'd be able to last 4 hours between feeds by then, but her naps are too short to fit into a nice routine.

Any advice would be appreciated.  You know, I thought I'd get it 'right' this time with baby #2, but I'm finding the opposite is happening, which is even more frustrating.  There doesn't seem to be the time or the energy to devote.  I don't know how everyone does it with these naps without losing their minds.  I dread all parts of my day, naps, mornings, nights... and I feel like I spend my entire time in the nursery and I'm missing all the great things that my toddler is doing   Does day sleep get better as they get older, even without strict sleep training?  I honestly feel like this is sucking all the energy out of my life.  I even forgot it was Christmas!

[~Sara~]

Hi hon *hugs* While I only have one baby, I understand how you're feeling.  When DS was younger, I literally spend all his nap time in his room either shh/patting or doing hold through the jolts.  I had no life outside of getting him to sleep and obsessing about naps.  The 3-4h EASY transition was very hard for us, too, because of DS's short naps.  He would want to eat right after waking up just because it helped comfort him (but I knew he could last longer if his naps were longer).

Having read through your post, there are some suggestions that I'd like to make that will hopefully make things easier for you.  If those don't work, I will be here with you and we'll get to the bottom of these short naps!

A couple of things real quick, how many days has she been on EASY?  Is she in any pain at all from her reflux??  The advice I offer below is under the assumption that she's not experiencing any discomfort from that; but we can adjust things if she is.

The simplest suggestion I have to make is make her first A time longer.  What I think is happening is that she takes an undertired nap first thing in the morning, and since she didn't get a restorative nap in, she ends up overtired or overstimulated by the end of the day.  Try gently extending her first A time to 1h25-1h30.  That means if she wakes at 7, for example, start her wind down routine at ~8:10 and start shh/patting by ~8:20.  You'll want to have her asleep no later than 8:25/30.  Follow the same pattern for every nap.

If she wakes up early from her nap, try the shh/pat for 30 minutes.   If she won't go back to sleep, get her up, feed her at the next E time, but you'll have to shorten the A time so that you avoid OT (remember, A time is eyes open to eyes shut and includes eating, activities, and wind down routine).

Another thing you'll want to consider is avoiding overstimulation.  Having a consistent wind down routine in place will help to combat this as it gives your LO time to relax and get in the right mood for sleep.  What does your wind down routine look like at this point?  You mentioned that her room is dark, but you can still see each other.  Have you thought about darkening it more (DS's is like a cave, and it's helped a TON!)?

Lastly--for now anyways--have you tried doing wake to sleep or holding through the jolts?  Here's a link that describes both techniques:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

So let me know what you think of that, and we'll go from here

I hope you've been able to enjoy a bit of Christmas with your family *hugs*

[yunnage]

Aww, thanks so much for the hugs.  It's so crazy the things us moms do, eh?  But it's so wonderful to feel supported and guided by so many on this forum.  I have to say the wealth of knowledge and the commitment on here is incredible.

Although I adopted a few EASY principles maybe 2 weeks ago, I started a strict 3EASY only 5 days ago.  I'm committing myself to 2 solid weeks of sleep training.  I refuse to miss a nap opportunity and my DH is home to take care of the toddler.
I tried shh/pat about a month ago with no success, so I started a modified shh/pat pu/pd on Monday.  I know, I know... everyone says wait until the baby is 4 months, but my LO would just get all worked up in the crib with shh/pat and was inconsolable, so I do pu/pd when she's really upset and then put her back down the second she settles.  Anna in the pu/pd forum has been a lot of help I'm surprised that I've seen progress with it over the past 5 days (sometimes I don't need to even do pu/pd), although I don't always get a nap out of 45 grueling minutes of it

I think you're right about being UT, then followed by OT later on.  This morning, before you posted, I tried extending her A time to 1 hr 25 and got a 50 minute nap:

E 7:00
A 7:15
S 8:25
A 9:15

Do you think I should extend it to 1 hr 30 or 1 hr 35 tomorrow morning?

I think her reflux is under control.  I only say that because I was on this forum maybe 2 weeks ago reading through posts because my LO kept waking up 8 minutes after she'd been down, but she hasn't done that since I started shh/pat 5 days ago.  I also elevated the crib at the same time, so she is managing to get through at least one sleep cycle, unlike before.

I've never had any success extending her naps with shh/pat unfortunately.  I find that once she's up, she's up.  She doesn't wake upset, but she's absolutely wide awake.  I've also tried just shh/patting for the entire time she's asleep to see if she'll sleep through her cycle and that hasn't worked either.  If she has a 30 minute nap, then how short do you think her A time should be?  Sometimes she seems really rested from a 30 minute nap and sometimes she's super tired.

I'm sure my wind down could use some work.  It is always the same though: quiet walking or low-key activity downstairs before the wind down, go upstairs, sing a quiet song for 3-4 minutes to her, cuddle her close and tell her it's sleepy time and say a few words before turning on her sound machine and then swaddling her tightly.  After she's swaddled I have her over my shoulder and she calms down by looking at this photo.  I know BW suggests cuddling close and limiting visual stimulation for a few minutes, but I haven't tried that.  I then put her in the crib and shh/pat and pu/pd if needed.

I'll read up on W2S.  I'm nervous about trying it, partly thinking each time she naps that this'll be the time she actually sleeps through on her own!  She wakes up if there's any noise above her sound machine (it's really high already), so I'm worried she'll awake if I try W2S.

Sigh.  Endless hugs to you and thank you so much for taking the time to reply.  Merry Christmas!

[~Sara~]

If you've been seeing success with the combo of shh/pat and PU/PD, stick with it!  Most babies can't handle PU/PD at your LO's age, so that's the only reason I didn't mention it at first.  It sounds like you're seeing results--wonderful (and, yes, Anna is extremely amazing)!

Kudos to you for being so committed to getting your daughter on EASY.  It's fantastic that your DH is able to help you out.  I think we'll see some breakthroughs soon (even more than you already have)

A 50 minute nap still sounds UT to me...you can try going to 1h30-35 A time tomorrow, but just be careful of going more than that too fast as you'll want to give her body a couple of days to adjust to the new A time (even if she's UT for naps) because you don't want to make her OT in the process.  So stay at 1h30-1h35 for 2-3 days, then do another 10 minute jump.  If her naps suddenly go to 30 minutes, that's OT and you'll need to scale back.

We never could use shh/pat to extend naps either very well.  Our best chance was to do hold through the jolts.  Wake to sleep didn't work for us either, so if you're hesitant to try it, maybe just do it as a last resort.

If she has a 30 minute nap, then how short do you think her A time should be?  Sometimes she seems really rested from a 30 minute nap and sometimes she's super tired.

I promise that's she's not rested after a 30 minute nap   How much you shorten the following A time really depends on her.  My LO can usually do about 15-20 minutes less than a regular A time on a short nap.  Just watch for her cues.  She should still be able to do at least an hour.

I think your wind down routine sounds okay.  We read books to DS before his naptime, so looking at a pic is kind of the same thing.

So...give those things a shot over the next couple of days.  I'm going to be out of town, but will be back on Monday.  Good luck

[yunnage]

Hope you had a great Christmas!

I extended her first A time to 1hr 30/32 for the past three days and still got 40-50 minute naps.  Do you think I should go for longer tomorrow?  Her naps were around the same for the rest of the day, although she did manage a 2 hr nap on Saturday, so it means that she's capable of moving through the transition herself.

I'm actually finding it's taking a really long time to get her down at night and stay down.  I guess it's from being so OT over the course of the day. 

Also, she seems really restless during her naps, lots of head turning and movement and I have to stay with her for the full 20 minutes to shh/pat her.  I've been using shh/pat for only a week and I'm already worried that I've become a prop.  Should I be letting go by now or is it normal in the early stages to do shh/pat for the full time?

Thanks

[~Sara~]

Hi!  We did have a good Christmas, thank you!  I hope you did as well

Okay, I would increase her A time by another 10 minutes for the next 2-3 days and see how she does.  As LOs approach 4 months, they are starting to transition to a 4h EASY.  This is what we're working towards here, too.  In order to do a 4h EASY, though, LOs need to be able to do 2h A times.  I don't know how much she can handle right now, so that's why we're doing this in 10 minute increases every couple of days.  (Here's some more info on the transition: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0)

Her fighting bedtime could be OT.  Let's see if lengthening her A times produces longer naps, which then help her feel good enough to settle for bedtime.

Her fighting naps could be the UT...she just isn't tired enough to drift off; and that's okay.  We should see an improvement soon here, too, as we extend her A time.  I think once we approach the right sleep window for her, you'll find that you'll need to shh/pat her for less and less.  Make sure that your wind down routine is consistent every time, as that will help her realize that it's time to go to sleep and help her settle faster.

When I was helping DS learn how to extend his naps, I felt like I was a prop, too.  Before we consider that option, though, let's see how she responds to our lengthening her A time.  If we find her right A time and she seems to unnecessarily need shh/pat, then you'll want to start lessening it and let her settle the rest of the way by herself.

[yunnage]

Just an update.

I extended my LO's A time by 10 minutes for two days and she wouldn't go down for her morning nap at all for two days.  I thought it was teething or rolling, but once I put her A time back to 1hr25-30 she went down easily again.  I'm finding that she requires very little sh/pat if I put her down around 1hr30 for the subsequent naps.  I guess she isn't ready yet for a longer A time and because she only naps 45 minutes each time, the A times end up all pretty short. 

I've had no luck extending her naps with sh/pat or HTTJ.  Once her eyes open that's it, she's up.  So, we're stuck in a bit of a cycle of 3-4x45min naps a day and I'm hoping that as she matures she'll be able to make it through the transition.  Is there a common age where a lot of babies are better able to increase their nap times and are able to transition on their own?  The good thing is that she's happy during the day, even with the short naps, and she's sleeping well at night (for now!).

I'm glad to see that as the A time is tweaked, the need for sh/pat goes down.  I walked out of the room after 5 minutes this morning!  I find that I can cut my sh/pat short for the morning naps, but less so for the PM ones because she's probably a little OT and hard to settle by then.

[~Sara~]

If she's happy, able to make it through the day--and night, then I say go with it.  And if she's easy to settle for sleep, that's a good sign that things are just right for her.

Most LOs start being able to take longer naps on their own at around 6 months (some earlier, some later).

I'm glad you've seen an overall improvement; and at least we know the A times are right for her as we've seen what happens when we overshoot it.

[yunnage]

Hopefully she does turn around by 6 months

Thanks for all of your help.  I'm sure I'll be back again soon