Breast feeding 5mth old

[FionaS]

DD is almost 5 months old. She has struggled to transition to even a 3.5 hour EASY as she simply seems hungry more often.  At present I find she is feed 2 to 3 hourly in the day and once or twice a night.  She slept from 6pm to 5am without a feed from 10 weeks to 16 weeks but when she hit 4 months she suddenly reverted to feedng 3 hourly at night and has not gone back to sleeping through.  My supply is good as is my diet.  I have a 3 year old as well so am unavoidably busy and tired.

She seems to take FULL feeds everytime.  I find now she is awake longer, she feeds more.  For example, if she is up for 2 hours as sometimes happens (it is holiday time here) she will absolutely not settle for sleep until fed again.  If I hold out she will literally cry instead of sleeping right up until her next feed time.  If I feed she will sleep a good 2 hours.

In addition, she will not settle in the evenings until she has been on the breast 2 to 4 times over the course of 2 hours.  Everytime she is on she sucks and swallows effectively for 5 to 10 mins. 

Is this just the nature of an exlusively breastfed baby or am I being tricked into demand feeding?  I feel I am going bonkers with all this feeding...especially when she used to sleep through and now is up once or even twice a night!

She will not take bottles, formula or solids yet.

[~ Vik ~]

Hi there!

could you post a typical EASY day, including all feeds? I know it's hard with the holidays, but even yesterday's routine would be helpful. Do you do a dream feed?

When she wakes at night what is she doing? Happy/fussing/mantra/crying? What other things have you tried to settle her? Does she have a paci? How does she fall asleep for naps/night (independently/props)?

It is normal for ebf babies to stay on a more-frequent feeding routine than formula fed babies due to the composition and digestibility of breastmilk (my ds was on a 3.5h routine until 5.5mo). However, 2hrly feeds at this age could indicate snacking. Hopefully once we can see your EASY we can figure something out

[FionaS]

Hi.  We don't do a dreamfeed.  We did one up to 9.5 weeks but she was waking 2 hourly in the night.  As soon as we stopped the DF she started doing 11 hours solidly with no feeds.  Needless to say I was put off the DF

When she wakes she cries.  I never hear her fuss or chat...she just cries full on.  As she was such a good sleeper we never had need to resettle so we have never actually done so.  I've thought of it a couple of times but as soon as someone goes into her she just yells full on wanting to be fed.

As for our EASY...it changes soo much.  I'm very much a routine person but it just doens't seem to click for her.  It all depends when she gets up (based on when she feeds in the night), whether she is hungry first thing (often she isn't if she has fed at 5am), if we go out etc.

Here is one day:

1am night feed
5am night feed
6.30 wakes for day and not hungry

E 7.30
A some before this feed and a little after
S 8am - 9.20am

E 9.30
A
E 11.30
S 11.40 - 1.40

E 1.40
A
E 3.40
S 4.00 - 4.45

E  5.30
E  6.30 (often on 4 times before she will settle)
S  Often 8pm before she has finished wanting the breast and goes to sleep.

She always goes to bed awake and puts herself to sleep but as you can see she is often feeding right before sleep so is almost asleep when she goes down.  In the evenings I find it odd as I will offer her the breast in the lounge and she will refuse but as soon as we go into her room and put her sleep sack on she starts rooting and if offered again (a mere 5 mins after I offer in the lounge) she will take a FULL feed.  She will often do this 4 times before settling.

Today we managed to go 3.5 to 4 hours between feeds all day and didn't feed at all before sleep. All her sleeps today were 2 hours. I have just put her to bed for the night after feeding at 5.30 and 7.30 (twice at 7.30) but I can hear she is not settling.  Does she need to tank up multiple times before sleep?  Or am I being used as a pacifier?

[FionaS]

Forgot to add she has no props.  She is in a sleeping bag in her own cot in her own room.  No paci.  She has sleep music for day sleeps only.  She has been wrapped up until now but we are weaning that.  She has a blankie to hold (our transition object).  I put her to bed awake.  She USED to go to sleep consistently day and night with no crying.  Now that we have had so many occassions of feeding before sleep, she really protests if not feed immediately before sleep so there is much more crying.  However, for day sleeps it only lasts a minute or two.  In the evening, she almost never settles unless put to bed very sleepy after a feed.  She just yells and yells and no amount of resettling calms her but putting her to the breast does.

[FionaS]

Last night DD fed at 8pm then woke at 1am.  I know she can go 6pm to 5am so I decided to try resettling.  No go.  I tried for 1 hour 40mins.  She then slept 10mins and woke again so I fed (figured it was ok as she had slept for a little bit).  So she ate at 2.40am...both sides.  Then she woke at 6am and took both sides again.  I don't wish to start the day at 6 but felt it was the best thing to do today in order to preserve the EAS routine and get out of the EAES pattern.  If I'd put her back down at 6 she would've only slept until 7.30 and the not been interested in eating.

Interestingly in the day she will only take 1 side and maybe a little from the second side..even on a 4 hourly feed schedule but she drains both sides every time in the night.

She won't take a bottle of formula or EBM so I feel so frustrated.

I guess what I want to know is does an exclusively breast fed baby NEED all these night feeds?  And can a breastfed baby really do a 3.5 or 4 hourly routine at 5mths?

[~ Vik ~]

Got a few thoughts for you

Today we managed to go 3.5 to 4 hours between feeds all day and didn't feed at all before sleep. All her sleeps today were 2 hours.

That's great progress!  IMHO, I would try to stick closer to the 3.5h end to start, especially since she's ebf and no solids yet.  She's used to having her tummy filled every couple of hours, so to suddenly jump to every 4h can cause dehydration (not common, but it has happened!) as it's too big of a change too quickly.  Sticking to around 3.5h for a while will give her time to adapt to taking bigger feeds less frequently.

We don't do a dreamfeed.

At present I find she is feed once or twice a night.

That's no problem, some los don't take to the dreamfeed, and in others it can really disrupt their sleep (as you've found!).
Night feeds are definitely hard, especially when you had that stretch of time with no night feeds at all. At this age feeding at night is still reasonable, especially for an ebf lo.  Without a dreamfeed, 2 night feeds is not uncommon.  My ds did a dreamfeed and a night feed until around 8-9mo.  Have you read http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0?  It won't ease your fatigue, but there's some really good information on there about night feeds, and includes a link on weaning night feeds if you decide that that is something you would like to do.

It all depends when she gets up (based on when she feeds in the night), whether she is hungry first thing (often she isn't if she has fed at 5am), if we go out etc.

It's normal for them to not be hungry enough for a full feed if they fed in the wee hours of the morning.  Can you get her to latch on at all?  The goal really is to get her to take a 'top up' feed; enough to fill her tummy so she can last to the next EASY feeding time and keep your routine on track.
Have you ever tried a set wake up time with her?  That's another thing that keeps your EASY on a better track and helps you plan your day if you do have to go out.  When my ds was younger, I found that any wake up time later than 730 really threw our day for a loop.  I would wake him by then if he was still sleeping and our days were much smoother.

S 4.00 - 4.45

E  5.30
E  6.30 (often on 4 times before she will settle)
S  Often 8pm before she has finished wanting the breast and goes to sleep.

I think that your dd is really OT at bedtime, and is possibly using you as a pacifier to settle herself for that reason.  If she was up at 630am, you really should be aiming for a 630pm bedtime for a 12h day/night.  Do you have a bedtime routine with her?  Have you tried feeding her earlier, knowing that she's going to want to feed a few times before bed?  Our milk supplies are at their lowest in the evenings, so she could be hungry and tanking herself up, but I do believe that OT could be a big factor too.  I would try an earlier bedtime for a few days and see if that helps.

What do you think?

[~ Vik ~]

Oops, we posted at the same time!!

I know she can go 6pm to 5am so I decided to try resettling.  No go.  I tried for 1 hour 40mins.  She then slept 10mins and woke again so I fed (figured it was ok as she had slept for a little bit).  So she ate at 2.40am...both sides.

That "falling asleep only to wake up very shortly after" definitely indicates hunger, as does the fact that she took a full feed. 

Interestingly in the day she will only take 1 side and maybe a little from the second side..even on a 4 hourly feed schedule but she drains both sides every time in the night.

Again, that's actually quite normal.  At this age our los are really discovering the world:  Why waste time staring at mommy's chest when there's so much else to look at?   Babies of this age are very distractible during the day, but at night it's dark and quiet and they're sleepy, so they take fuller feeds.  Have you tried giving her a toy to fiddle with while you're nursing her?  Or feeding her in her room in the dark (like a night feed) right after she wakes up?  I used to wear a 'necklace' of ds' linking rings with a couple of toys attached to keep him interested in feeding.

I guess what I want to know is does an exclusively breast fed baby NEED all these night feeds?  And can a breastfed baby really do a 3.5 or 4 hourly routine at 5mths?

Yes, it is very, very common for an ebf baby to take one or even 2 feeds at night, especially without a dream feed, at 5mo.  Some breastfed babies do move easily into a 4h routine, others need to feed more frequently.  I said before I think, but my ds was on a 3.5h feeding routine until 5.5mo when we introduced solids.  Breastmilk is very easily digested, and leaves their tummies empty more quickly than formula does.  That's why many breastfed babies stay on more frequent feeds than bottle fed ones.

Does that help at all?  Let me know what you think

[FionaS]

Thanks for all that info.  I will try to answer all the questions:

1.  She was feeding 3.5 hourly until 4 months when she hit the growth spurt.  I will try sticking closer to that for a while and see how we go.

2.  Have we tried a set wake-up....I REALLY want to but it doesn't seem to work.  If she feeds at 5 and then only has a small feed at 7 her first nap is only 45mins and we come undone. If her first feed is reasonable, her first nap is 2 hours usually.  I really do hate the fact that every day is so different as I can still never make any plans ahead of time.

3.  I know she likes to feed frequently in the evening so I have tried feeding her a few times through-out our evening routine.  The odd thing is she will take one feed then refuse the breast everytime she is offered UNTIL she is wrapped up ready for bed then she will feed and feed.

4.  Bedtime - I aim for 12 hours from the time she gets up in the morning but since 4 months she won't settle for 1 to 1.5 hours.  She just wants to keep going on the breast and if I don't offer it she will just cry on and on and on and on.  It just switched over night.  She was AMAZING at settling at 6.30 every night without any crying then suddenly she just stopped settling.

5. Yes, I do her day feeds in a quiet dark room and she seems to feed well, just doesn't seem to need both sides in the day

So what you seem to be saying is that even though she did 11 hours without feeds for 6 weeks it is likely that she can not not go more than 4 or 5 hours and that is normal?  So do I just feed everytime she wakes until she sorts it out herself? Is is mean to try to do a DF and stop the night feeds since she demonstrated she can do 11 hours?

[~ Vik ~]

1.  She was feeding 3.5 hourly until 4 months when she hit the growth spurt.  I will try sticking closer to that for a while and see how we go.

Even sticking to 3.5h for a few days, then increasing it by 5-10m every couple days until you get to 4h, should be fine if that's where you want to go.  It's just the sudden jump from feeding every 2 to every 4h that can cause problems.  And it could be that I'm overly vigilant about that as I was recently helping a mom on another thread that had that happen to her lo.

2.  Have we tried a set wake-up....I REALLY want to but it doesn't seem to work.  If she feeds at 5 and then only has a small feed at 7 her first nap is only 45mins and we come undone. If her first feed is reasonable, her first nap is 2 hours usually.  I really do hate the fact that every day is so different as I can still never make any plans ahead of time.

That is frustrating   And unfortunately I don't even know what to advise here!  Have you thought about starting a thread on the EASY forum?  You'll likely get some great routine help there.

3.  I know she likes to feed frequently in the evening so I have tried feeding her a few times through-out our evening routine.  The odd thing is she will take one feed then refuse the breast everytime she is offered UNTIL she is wrapped up ready for bed then she will feed and feed.

4.  Bedtime - I aim for 12 hours from the time she gets up in the morning but since 4 months she won't settle for 1 to 1.5 hours.  She just wants to keep going on the breast and if I don't offer it she will just cry on and on and on and on.  It just switched over night.  She was AMAZING at settling at 6.30 every night without any crying then suddenly she just stopped settling.

What if you were to wrap her up for bed earlier?  If you're aiming for a 630 bt, do your routine and wrap her up by around 6, then take her into her room and feed.  Might not be a magic solution, but it may help her settle a bit earlier if OT is a factor.

So what you seem to be saying is that even though she did 11 hours without feeds for 6 weeks it is likely that she can not not go more than 4 or 5 hours and that is normal?

The amount of night feeds that you are doing (1 or 2 per night with no df) is normal for an ebf 5mo old.  It is so hard when you had that long stretch of sttn, but that's actually the part that's more unusual!  From the http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0 link, most ebf babies do not get to an 8+ hour stretch until over 6mo old.  I think that if you can get bedtime sorted (which may be challenging, but worth it!) you will get to a 5-6hr stretch.  She is taking full feeds when she wakes (not just using the breast as a prop to fall back to sleep) so I believe that hunger is driving the wakings.

So do I just feed everytime she wakes until she sorts it out herself?

I don't recommend that per say.  For example, if she wakes only 2 hours after taking a full feed then you need to look for other reasons that she is waking.  Have you seen these FAQs?
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=53450.0
But the current pattern of your dd's wakes?  Yes, I would just feed and settle back to sleep.

Is is mean to try to do a DF and stop the night feeds since she demonstrated she can do 11 hours?

IMHO, you cannot coax a baby to sttn.  There are some things you can do to minimize nws as much as possible, but ultimately if they are hungry they are going to wake and demand to be fed!  I wouldn't reintroduce the df, as you've already seen that it disrupts her sleep.  If anything, you may be able to push out that morning feed some (especially since you're finding that it disrupts your routine during the days).  Check out http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/weaning-night.html when you have some time.  There's some ideas on how to reduce wakings and ways to deal with other reasons for them.

HTH

[FionaS]

Thank you.    Always wonderful to find someone to talk through it all with.

[FionaS]

One more thing...is it ok to breastfeed immediately before bed at night providing you put baby to bed awake?  E.g is it ok to feed in the room, then burp, do a quick song and then pop into bed right away?  Or should I be feeding at least 15mins before bed?

[~ Vik ~]

Honestly, I think it depends on the baby! I do what you're describing - I feed ds in the nursery, then get up and sing our song, start his music and lay him down and that works for us. With other babies it's hard to do that and avoid the feed to sleep association. You can crtainly give it a try and see how it goes! Especially since you've stopped feeding right before naps you should be ok