7.5 mnth NW - is it separation anxiety?

[babywp]

Hi there,

My DS is 7.5 months old and after some hard work has generally been on a pretty good EASY the last few months.  However of late he's doing increasingly frequent NWs and I'd really appreciate some advice on his day time routine and NW if possible.

His day is generally:
7  Awake
E
A
10.15  S
1130 Awake (I sometimes have to wake him so he doesn't miss lunch)
E
A
1500 S
1600 Awake (Again I wake him as otherwise he won't be tired at 7pm)
A
E
1900 S

He'll then regularly wake at each 45min mark until I go to bed (around 10pm) - then will be likely to wake twice in the night and often do some EW - I've just gone back to work full time (his grandma follows his routine in the week) and I'm finding it really hard!!

As you can see he's awake for a good 3hrs 15 in the morning and up to 3hrs 45 in the afternoon.  He wld be happy to sleep for 3hrs total in the day (so wld I!) but then won't go to sleep on time as not tired enough.  Is it too early to move to one nap?  I just feel that 2hrs 15 is not enough and might contribute to the NW?  He's really easy to settle for NW if I go in (mostly a quick cuddle and that's it) - but if my husband goes in he really kicks off - great!  That's why I wonder if its SA - but I have to say apart from that he's really good; doesn't cry when I leave for work or when I get home - he's just started 2 mornings at nursery and seems to really like that too, not crying once.

I also don't think it's teething as he has 2 teeth now and whilst it was hell getting them with lots of NW it was of a different real pain type, whereas this just seems like he wants to see mummy all the time...

Just wondering if anyone has any tips on routine or nighttime to help mummy (and poor daddy!) get some sleep again!

Thank you for helping, baby whisperers!

Tilda. x

[babywp]

Oh, forgot to say, in order to settle I always go for the pick up immediately.  Imagine this is prob not right but if I try to pat and soothe, LO just goes beserk until I pick him up - also the longer I leave before I pick him up the longer he takes to settle after - so I've fallen into the pick up, 30 sec settle and then I can leave approach - shld I try and change this?  Thank you!

[Tweakster]

Hi there Tilda, it sounds like a lot of things going on.  His long A of 3 hr 45 is a bit too long for his age and likely to cause OT NW. Normally at 7 - 8 mths age they are doing 3 - 3 hr 30 mins max A time.  

Can you let him do 1.5 hour nap in the morning?  Since you are waking him it looks like he is ready to do a longer nap on that A time. It would just push your lunch out a bit.  And then the afternoon nap should be another 1.5 hours to start.  If you keep getting EW or NW in the latter part of the night where he is not crying but just playing, then you could start shaving a nap.  But that does not normally occur this early.  

What does he normally sleep at night - 11 or 12 hours? I suspect that he is actually overtired at his bedtime and in his second wind.  

At his age I would do as much settling in the crib as possible and not picking him up.  You could consider gradual withdrawal (GW) to get out of the room.

[babywp]

Thanks Wendy, really appreciate your help.
The problem is (now) that for the last 2 days (including today) he just wants to stay up forever!  Yesterday he slept for 1hr 30 in the morning, but then after a 5min nap in his pram on a walk totally refused to sleep again - he ended up in bed at 5.45pm having not slept the rest of the day!!  He does sleep quiet well at night, didn't wake today until 7.15 today (so 13hrs 30!) but will normally do 7pm - 6 or 7am.  Today I have just got him to go down for his pm nap at 15.45 having been awake since 11.45!! (after only 1hr nap in the morning).  I haven't woken him from a nap for a few days now, he wakes himself and is WIDE AWAKE and impossible to get back to sleep. I have tried to put him down since 14.45 today but he just crawls round his cot and kicks the side laughing... I know he's awake a lot for his age and not sleeping a lot in the day, just not sure how to change it??  I shld say he's always been quite active and v recently has learnt how to sort of semi-crawl, so wonder if he's just too excited about it to want to sleep?  I've tried 'quiet time' before naps but I can't force him to be tired!
Have stopped picking up and that's working quite well, using quite a lot of shhh/pat though.

Thanks for your advice, what do you mean by 'second wind' by the way - is that what he did yesterday when he was up from 1140 to 5.45pm?

Tilda.

[Tweakster]

HI there, Finn went through this too.  Motor skills and milestones do make a mess of things, but they quickly move on to something else (luckily? lol)  Also I do my utmost to not let Finn fall asleep in the car seat or stroller (which he rarely does anyway but has been known to) because if I do and I am not out AND moving for the full 1.5 hours, he will do anywhere between 5 - 30 mins and think that is his nap.  In that case, I would do exactly what you did which is early bedtime.  It sounds like he's doing a bit of self-regulating with that extra long night - bravo by the way.  That is really good for his age. 

But I know it doesn't help the routine any :-)

Second wind is what normally happens when they are OT.  The get hyper almost, cheery and chipper, they don't seem tired but it manifests in NW or EW or difficult bedtimes.  Finn gets really 'silly' before he goes off the rails. 

[babywp]

Thanks Wendy,

That makes a lot of sense and seems to reflect what he's been doing.  Just now I thought he ought to be tired but wasn't sure so didn't put him down - he then became really 'hyper', sort of v laughy but then grizzly a second later, think I realised and just caught him in time.  He was v hard to put down for his nap and needed a lot of LOUD shh/pat - I also didn't managed to get out until he was asleep, which i normally try and do; this is becoming more common (poss as often too OT? or because grandma and nursery now put him down for a lot of his naps and may (and in grandmas case def are!) assisting him to sleep quite a lot?) Do you have any thoughts on how to avoid this, whilst still making sure he actually gets his nap?  He's quite spirited so I often think that he's tired but fighting it, so needs more assistance?

  Yesterday he was up for AGES but when he finally went down he had a really good nap for 2hrs, I didn't want him to as it meant he woke up only an hour before his normal bedtime, but then he went down at 7 as normal and only did one NW at about 4am (nothing from 7-10 when I'm normally up and down every 45!).  So I might stop worrying about when he sleeps and just let him get the hours in (today he woke at 9(!!) so might just do the one nap now but hope it's a long one!)

Just a quick question about separation anxiety - he's definately reaching a stage where he'll cry for me if I don't manage it right, and poss as a result he's not v good at independent play - he'll go nowhere near 45mins on his own (I've just got Tracy's Toddlers book where she suggests at 8months he might be able to do this).  Because he's spirited and so wants to move on all the time thinking this might be a part of it - just wondered if you had any tips on how to help him play more on his own?

Thanks again for your help, last night was such a relief!!

[Tweakster]

Hi there, the problem is they don't give great tired cues at this age, often when they are yawning and eye-rubbing it's too late.  And it makes sense, I can be tired at night and ready for bed, if I keep going rather than going to bed when I feel tired (before the eye-rubbing stage) I will get to the stage where I am sooo tired I am hyper and can't sleep.  The only trick that has worked for me has been to put him down BEFORE I thought he was tired.  So shave 5-10 mins off his A time and those are the naps he went down without a peep.  But I often, very often, miss his window because that's the temperament I am working with hehe :-)

Sometimes I would try to 'assist' Finn and it made things worse, I had to leave him to it and really feel confident that it was more mantra crying and a protest cry rather than 'hey I need you'.  I don't respond now to the 'I want you' cries when I know he's tired.  He has to work it out.  So some Spirited are actually in need of their explosion before they go to sleep.  It's like they are letting out all the stimulation. 

Independent play is something I don't know a lot about...and the paed keeps reminding me how important it is for him to do his own thing.  I know what works for us now that he's cruising is to give him access to his toys, we have a wooden toy holder with open coloured bins and he just goes over and picks out what he wants and we have the furniture set up where he can cruise around the room pretty much.  When I was trying to promote more independent play before he was mobile I would do baskets of various toys and rotate them every day.  So he would not see the same toy in a 2 day period.  Also our living area is open concept and so I could be in the kitchen and he in the living room and he can still hear and see me. 

I know what Tracy is saying and some LO's might manage 45 mins on their own at 8 mths but Spiriteds get bored easily with one thing and need to move on to something else.  So I think 45 mins is probably a bit on the high side for that temperament.  I think Finn is normally good now for up to 15-20 mins before he comes looking for me or checking out to see where I am and if I am doing anything interesting.

And when Finn is hanging off my pant leg, I will pick him up, give him a cuddle and put him right back down with something new - 'here look at this ice cream scoop' etc.  Just distraction really, that's all that has worked for us thus far.

Let me know how it's going.