Previously Great sleeper - now crying at bedtime for a week- HELP!

[MomofJamino]

Hi Everyone,

I have never posted before.  I have a 20 month old son and I'm desperate for suggestions.  I read Tracy's infant book and loved the concept of E.A.S.Y. and used it to sleep train my son.  He has been a terrific sleeper, naps and bedtime since he was 3 months old.  He likes being on a schedule and has no issues usually sticking to it.

But right now I'm at my wits end.  At this moment I'm sitting in my kitchen alone, trying not to cry, after a week of him not going to sleep every night for hours at bedtime.    Some of the nights he has been sobbing, other nights he whimpers, whines, 'pretend cries' and/or talks to himself.  Last night he didn't go to sleep until 11:40pm and he usually is asleep by 7:30 each night.  Now I don't believe in cry-it-out, but tonight we tried it because we're getting frantic.  He talked to himself for the first 90 mins, whimpering occasionally, then he cycled into crying for 5 -10 mins and then abruptly stopping and talking to himself.  He was escalating more and more and at 10:25pm my husband went in to pick him up.  He fell asleep almost immediately when my husband picked him up. 

It's been awful - and all I keep thinking is - we tried so hard to teach him good sleep habits (he does use a pacifier though) and what happened??  We are paralyzed to know what to do for him because we do not want to become a prop for him.. but I can't stand listening to him cry and really knowing he's awake at all for 2-4 hours more than he should be.  My hubby and I are fighting  because of lack of sleep and not knowing where to turn.. and the overall morale of the house is in a really bad place.  Please Help!!!

[Julianne1984]

*hugs*  my lo is 20months,I know how you feel!

Right, what's his routine normally like? (Wake-up, nap, bedtimes?) How does he initially act at bedtime?

I have a feeling he's under-tired at bed, but gets so worked up because he doesn't want to sleep that he ends up way OT and then can't sleep...

Give me as much detail as you can about his daily routine. How long his nap is etc, how he goes down for nap (well, chatty,crying etc etc) xx

[Julianne1984]

Oh also, my LO has been having a few night wakings which we are certain caused by teething, I'm guessing the 2yr molars starting to move!! We have given meds last night and he had no NW's. I'd suggest giving meds at 6:30 before bed just incase, and see if it helps. Xx

[babybarr]

HUGS firstly.

Good questions and advice from Julianne.

Post your routine and any other infor you think may help.
Have there been any changes recently?  New house / illness / new baby??

[deb]

Teething was my first thought: both the 2-year molars and the canines/eyeteeth gave us fits around that time.

Also might be time to make adjustments to day sleep. When and how long is he napping?

[MomofJamino]

Ladies - thanks for the hugs - I feel so emotionally and physically drained this morning and I really needed a hug.  I'm thrilled people answered because I was scared no one would give any advice and I just feel alone right now. (apologize in advance for the length of this post... I just feel like I had to share all this pent up worry/frustration)

I am going to type out his routine - but let me also let you know a few things about our family so you can give me the best advice possible.  I work three days a week so the little man is in daycare (he usually loves it - drop off been difficult lately) Mon, Tues, Thurs.  My hubby is the best partner and we usually talk everything out and approach things together as a united front - he's very active and involved (he does work 5 days a week).  My son has always been on a schedule since three months old and everyone has always marveled at how he was so regular with eating and sleeping.  He was able to be be watched my grandparents at their house or our house and always went to sleep great - no problems.  He does start out with a nuk (pacifier) to sleep at nap and bedtime, but if it falls out he's able to either retrieve it or he doesn't care and lets it lay there.  He also sleeps with his blanket and a stuffed animal (it varies which one).  He has always slept in the dark - I try to make naps dark too.. and with the door shut.  We typically put on lullabye music at night and naps to start off... but I think that's more our pattern and not something he really cares about.  In general he is a very high energy little boy... this cold weather is killing us.  He does LOVE to look at books though and will play by himself for 20 mins reading or doing blocks.  He also has asthma (breathing treatment daily) and has food allergies to wheat, dairy, and eggs... but even with all that... and a few bad illnesses this year.. he's always had at most a night or two "off".. and then right back on track.  Ok.. that's a little about us as a nutshell..now on to the routine

Wake up - between 6:30/7:30am

Morning bottle - 7:45am (I was planning on working to kick bottles to the crib in the new year - but now not at the moment)

Breathing treatment - between 8:00-8:30

Breakfast - between 8:00-9:00 (depending on if I'm working or not we might be a little lacked in the morning - that accounts for the hour difference)

**on "school days" he is in school from 9am until about 4:30 when hubby picks him up.  Schedule continued is when home with mommy.

Play time - 9am - 11:45am

Lunch - 11:45am - 12:15

Read/Calm play - 12:15 - 12:45ish

Nap - 1-3pm (**at school he naps for about 90 mins....down around 12:30/1 and awake 90 mins later... he's always the last little one to fall asleep they tell me) - sometimes at home he will sleep for 2 1/2 hours.. in rarely 3 hours.. but it's typically justified by playing hard or not sleeping much at daycare the two days before.

Snack - around 3:30 depending on nap time

Play - 3:30ish until dinner - usually around 5:30pm

Dinner - 5:30ish - 6:15

Play/Books - 6:15 - 6:45/7 (last bottle in there somewhere too downstairs)

Tubby Time - 6:45 - 7:10

Bedtime - 7:10-7:30 - (pjs, music on, low lights, two books in the rocking chair because he is still in a crib, a snuggle)
then he is put to bed - always awake

**the routine is the same.. but varied like a hour throughout the day (bedtime always the same) depending on my work schedule.

**As far as anything that could be new - we were off for 5 days, then worked adn then off 5 days again the holiday week.... so it was a lot of family time and then back to the routine.  We also took down all the decorations.. and he does seem to miss the "big tree"... the only other thing is that our New Year resolution was to eat together every night because hubby and I had gotten int eh habit of eating after he went to bed at 7pm.. and we wanted to eat all together.  That's the only other "major change".

Thanks for the thoughts about teeth - I will try a pain reliever.

I will also say that less than 10 times since he was 6 months old has he fallen asleep on us int he rocking chair... sometimes because we held him longer because he was sick or because he was just so tired that night he fell asleep before we could realize it.  But in general we've been called "overly strict" by many friends/family who can't believe we always put him to bed awake... but up until a week ago it's been great so why would we change it if it was working.

Now... he in general is more opinionated - "no" is a new favorite word.  Horray.. but in general bedtime is "ok".. he likes it better on bath nights.. but then sobs when we take him out of the tub lately.  he is fine to read, get his blankie and nuk etc... and then I feel him tense up a little during the 2nd book.. adn as soon as we put him in the crib - he starts to roll over to get  up the minute we start walking away .. I leave anyway.. shut the door (no night light because we've jsut never done it) and then it starts.... 2-3 days he just started sobbing or heaving whining/yelling.. the other nights he talked to himself for like 1 1/2 -2 hours.. then starts to sob/whine/yell... last night he would stop to cough a few times - like he was going to vomit a little (this happens more easily with him though due to the asthma)...as I said last night we tried "cry it out".. and he didn't really get overly upset.. just whining and yelling but mostly talking to himself for like 21/2 hours... and then the crying started.. finally at 10:35 hubby couldn't take it because I was crying and so was the baby that he went in and picked him up and he went to sleep almost instantly.

Any and all help is appreciated!!!

[deb]

My first thought is that he's OT, possibly due to the lateness of his wakeup from nap. Is there any way he'll nap 30-60 minutes earlier? Then there wouldn't be such a short A time between his waking from nap and bedtime. Another suggestion would be to try GENTLY waking him a bit earlier from his nap, maybe after an hour, so he's less wide-awake at bedtime.

What is he on for breathing treatment?  Might that be a factor in his reluctance to fall asleep at naptime? After Josie's last bout with baby asthma (which she's thankfully outgrown), I vowed to NEVER EVER use Albuterol again unless it was a life-threatening issue - it wired her up and turned her into a miserable cuss. I hear that Xenopex has much less of that side effect but never had occasion to try it. Anyway, was thinking that may be part of the puzzle.

BTW, one thing I've learned is that here on BW there is no such thing as a dumb question. Heck, yesterday I posted a question about getting rid of fleas, and sure enough, got some replies. Among all the folks here, I think there's probably at least one parent who's experienced SOMETHING that can help another! 

[Julianne1984]

Hey, I agree, I think LO needs nap a little earlier as 4.5hrs A after nap is a little short. Maybe try 30/60mins earlier. Or wake him early from the nap as suggested. its likely that at school he's going to be so stimulated that he could do with that nap sooner than when at home.

Just to give you an idea, this is our routine at nearly 20months:

A 6:00
S 11:30-13:30
S 19:00.

Although your LO has had music from a young age, I bet he's at the age now where it has the opposite effect, and will keep him up.My LO loves music and there's no way I could put any on at bedtime now. I left something turned on at bedtime once,  it went off when I was downstairs and he cried hysterically. Maybe your LO needs minimum stimulation at bedtime.

Q. Does LO seem tired at bedtime? Is he getting sleepy before?  The chatting says to me that he's not ready, hence moving nap earlier. Xx

[MomofJamino]

To move the nap earlier - should I start it at 12:30?... then he'd be up by 2:30-3?..... At school he only sleeps from like 12:45 -2:20 (and I can't move it up those days because that's when they all nap).. but at home he always sleeps better... like 2-3 hours.. but sometimes only 90 mins.

The fighting bedtime is consistent no matter if he had school that day or not - so I wonder if nap time would make a difference.

Sometimes you're right - he doesn't seem too tired at bedtime, so he might not be tired enough to sleep - but since these sleep difficulties have been for the last week - he is overtired in general I think all the time right now.


Should I be doing PU/PD ?? - how does that work with a kid this age?  Do I touch him? take him out of the crib?  It seems like as soon as we go in he lays down on his own or wants a quick hug and then will lay down if I tell him too.. but then as soon as I leave he is upset again.. and going in and back out many times appears to prolong/worsen his reaction.

On Tues and Weds of last week when he started this he fell asleep both nights after crying on and off and us going in every time for about 2 1/2 hours..... but when he fell asleep it was him laying in his crib on his back.. holding my finger desperately.  He was ok not getting out of bed and didn't want me to cuddle him.. but it seemed that he couldn't or thought he couldn't sleep without me.. and he's never been like that before.  Is this separation anxiety? 

Should I do PU/PD or gradual?.... I just want to do right by him.. and currently I'm at a loss as to what will help him to be a good independent sleeper and not create or prolong problems.

what does everyone think?

[clazzat]

Sounds like the issues that I had with dd1 - the problem with us was that the morning was too long and the afternoon too short.  It wasn't that the amount of sleep was wrong, but she was OT in the morning and UT at bedtime which meant that she chatted in bed and missed her sleep window and ended up OT.  Incidentally, given that this has been going on for a week I would imagine that he is now just plain OT but can't get to sleep at night - that happened to us, and it got worse and worse until I realised that was the problem (I started by cutting naps because I thought she was UT but that wasn't right).  We also started to move into EWs from OT after this had been going on for a few weeks, so it's worth tackling quickly!

I would suggest a nap from 12.30-2.30 (even on high sleep needs, 2h should be enough at this age, and given that he is such a good sleeper he will probably make up a bit overnight if he really needs more than that).  A 7am wake up and 7/7.30 bedtime means that he has two A times of about 5.5h which should work better.

I would suggest that WIWO is better for you than PUPD - he is a properly independent sleeper, so he doesn't really need your help,  nor does he need real sleep training at this point.  I'm sure that with a small routine tweak you will get your good sleeper back.  What we did for WIWO was to go it, give her a stroke, say "it's sleepy time, night night" and leave - and did that every time we needed to go back (nothing more, nothing less).  How often you go back depends on how upset he is - listen to the cry and if it is a mantra cry you can leave him, but if it's an "I need you" cry you can go back in immediately.  I think it would be worth talking to him during the day and explaining what's going to happen - at 20 months he should be able to understand and you can reassure him that you will be there if he needs you but you're not going to sit with him.  One of the problems we had was with dd calling us back for things that she knew we would come back for (drink of water, pick up lovey etc) so we made it part of the routine to meet those needs (so she had no excuse!) and then made it clear to her that we would not come back and do any of those things again.

HTH.  and (((hugs))) - I know what it is like when your good sleeper goes bad, so I have a lot of sympathy.  But don't worry - you will get him back! 

[Julianne1984]

I totally agree with the last post!! I have nothing to add to that really.

I have no doubt that you're good sleeper will be back in no time *hugs*

Whatever you do make it consistent. Xx

[MomofJamino]

I will definitely move up his nap to 12:30.  Should I wake him after 2 hours if he doesn't wake on his own?

If the goal is 7-7:30 bedtime - any thoughts as to how long a bedtime routine should be at this age?

My question about WI/WO - does this ever back fire on anyone?  We have tried this...during the last week... eventually caving at like 3 hours and holding some part of him.. like a finger until he falls asleep... I guess I'm asking does anyone find that their child is worse when you start going in?

Like Sun. night I think he was UT when he went to bed... so he talked for like 2 hours... and then he started getting more upset... and we started going in at like 10pm..this kind of seemed to make it worse... he cried on and off for the next 90 mins.  Finally I went in at 11:35.. I laid him down and said, "Benjamin you have your nuk, your blanket, and dinosaur.  We love you, but it is time to go to sleep right now.  Night night".  Then I started to walk out.. and he heard me and he started to stand up again.  I repeated "lay down benjamin".... and I kept doing this every time he moved to get up as I slowly backed out of the room.  I then left the door open - which we usually don't do and that was it.  we all went to bed finally. 

It just seems like we don't go in for the first 1 1/2 -2 hours when he's just talking or whining mommy ... but then it escalates that 3rd hour....and every time we go in then he cries even harder when we leave.. it's like he's saying "I'm sooo tired.. stay in here and help me sleep now".  Does WI/WO ever make it worse in anyone's experience?

I will definitely talk to him about it throughout the day.. I just went and bought Tracy's toddler book.. and 5 bedtime books for him... I mean the little animals look so happy to go to sleep.. why doesn't he feel the same way.  Sigh....if it were only that simple I guess.

Also - is there any time frame people could offer for WI/WO?... I just need to see a glimpse of the light at the end of that tunnel.  Is there any part of the night where you cave so they can sleep.. or no matter how many hours it goes on just keep going?

Thank you all - the support and then responses are keeping me going at this point 

[Julianne1984]

Hey sorry just a quick post will read properly in the morning, I don't do wiwo, I do pu/pd... my lo is clingy in general, and he settles so much better that way. If you always end up holding/touching him then maybe he would settle quicker with pu/pd...? I know some people won't agree, but it works for us xx

[babybarr]

don't do wiwo, I do pu/pd... my lo is clingy in general, and he settles so much better that way.

We do PU/PD too if just PD doesn't work. 

I think wake him after the 2 hrs and then bed at 7 - 7.30pm

Good luck, you've got lots of support here.

[clazzat]

When I did WIWO with dd1 I started when she was chatting - just reminding her that she was meant to be going to sleep (I tend to find the chatting different from the mantra, as she will not go to sleep if she is chatting but she will if she is mantra'ing).  It might be worth trying going back at smallish time intervals (10-15 mins) to remind him that it is sleepy time and hopefully he will manage to fall asleep before he gets to the point where he is so OT he can't.

Having said that I absolutely cannot do WIWO with dd2 - it makes things so much worse.  She is much better left on her own because as soon as I go in to her she starts crying hysterically and she can keep it up - the longest it took me to cave in was 4 hours of hysterical sobbing (from both of us!) while I did WIWO.  But dd2 is a totally different sort of sleeper from dd1 - she has never really managed to sleep independently all night (we get a week every now and then when she will STTN) despite going to sleep independently at bedtime and during the day.  With an independent sleeper you should find that WIWO does work, even if it takes a few days for him to realise that you are there but you are not going to stay.

Another thing that occurred to me is that you said that he is very active but has been stuck indoors for the last bit - did the difficulty going to sleep coincide with the bad weather?  Both of mine go to sleep much more easily when they have had some good physical time, and it is possible that he started out being UT because he hadn't had his exercise but then it spiralled into OT.  I think that quite often (particularly at this age) they can be mentally exhausted but not able to sleep because they are not physically tired enough.  We bought an indoor trampoline to bounce the fidgets out of them when we can't go outside!

I would wake him after 2 hours - I have always stuck to waking from naps to preserve bedtime.  As for the routine, I would keep the part of it that is in his room to a minimum - we always used to do stories and a chat about the day in dd1's room, but when we started doing that downstairs and then having a quick cuddle in her room before putting her in bed she settled more quickly.  I think it demarcates play time from bed time a bit more clearly, iyswim.  So we have bath at 6, dd2 goes to bed 6.30, dd1 and I come downstairs and watch 2 tv programmes, then 2 stories, brush hair, do wee, chat about the day and then upstairs to bed between 7 and 7.15 - so in some ways our bedtime routine is over an hour, but the bit that is in her room is about 1 minute!