Chronically overtired - 30 min naps and AP

[spodnic]

Hello everyone

My LO is nine weeks old and although very sleepy at first she now has only 30 minute naps, and has done for about a month. I have tried putting her down at the first, second and third yawn, first fuss etc but I don’t seem to be getting her optimum sleep window no matter what I do. We have a bedtime routine of swaddle, song and paci so she is wound down. It can take a while for her to accept the paci and it often comes out before and when I lay her down. Once she’s bought into the idea though it tends to stay in.

I try and lay her down when her eyes start drooping so she’s not asleep. I noticed if I walked a bit while holding her she got sleepier quicker, but I don’t want this to be a prop, however as I’ve a toddler running round (who I did have a lot of time to BW sleep train) I sometimes resort to this.

Can 30 minute naps become habitual? Will she naturally extend them as she gets older (more physically tired as she becomes able to move about more, better able to handle more A time)?

She gets so overtired and I KNOW she needs longer naps. Having said that she’s good at night, going 7pm-7am with no paci (she’s sparko after her last feed) and only wakes once or twice to feed, then will settle herself. I don’t want her overtiredness to start affecting her nighttime sleep.

I could do with some fresh minds to help me work out what is going on! I’m keen to do PU/PD but I know it’s too early yet. The shush/pat wasn’t working for us but I wonder if I wean the dummy and/or the swaddle and the pacing, things will get better?

Please help before my hair turns completely grey!

[~Sara~]

Hi hon!  Could you post what her day looked like for either yesterday or today (in EAS format would be best, as would as exact of times as you can remember).  This will help give some insight as to why she's having those 30 minute naps.  Also if you could write down when you start your wind down routine, that would be helpful as well.

30 minute naps are typically OT, so let's see where this is happening, okay?

I don't think PU/PD is where you need to go...she is too young for that still, and it will only upset her more than calm her.

Just some other questions:
--Has she ever liked shh/pat?
--Is her room dark, is there white noise going?
--Does she need the pacifier, or do you think it might be bothering her?  (We weaned our kiddo off of the paci at about 2 months because it was just too distracting for him--he wouldn't fall asleep with it in and has been fine ever since)

So...don't whip out the hair dye just yet, okay?

[spodnic]

Hi, thanks for being there!

I forgot to say, I do try and get her back to sleep most times but it usually only results in 5 or 10 minutes more nap, she always wakes up again. After the first nap, which is usually short, I tend to try and get her down again soon, assuming she is tired still so I don’t look for sleepy cues after the first nap, or at least I don’t notice any. I feel like this first nap is when I have a clean slate to observe what her cues are, I think this morning was a little early, even though it was the 2nd yawn, as she didn’t seem that sleepy. Maybe as she is used to being more tired she could handle a bit more A time than what I gave her. I’ve had only about one long nap a week for at least a month now.

Today was:

7.15 Wake and Eat
7.40 A, swaddled and wind down start at 8.10 (2nd yawn) 10 min wind down, lots of paci spitting out, didn’t seem that sleepy
9.00 Sleep
9.45 Wake and Eat (wow 45 min nap!)
10.15 A (we went out so the next bit is all in the car seat/pushchair)
11.30 S
12 Wake
12.45 E
1.00 S (fell asleep while feeding)
1.15 Wake
2.20 S
2.35 Wake (we got home)
3.30 S
4.20 Wake and Eat
4.50 A, swaddled and wind down start at 5.15 (1st yawn). She soon started screaming which continued all the way through till:
6.15 Change, Eat
6.40 S

We went out today, but I’m usually very mindful of what’s happening with her naps, working around her where I can, and being at home a reasonable amount so she can sleep (although I have to go out now and again or I’ll go mad, and my toddler needs the air!). She missed her last nap today, which doesn’t happen that often.

She was ok with patting a few times, that and a vigorous back rub have helped her in the early days when I held her on my shoulder. The rooms we spend naptime in both have blackout blinds in so they are reasonably dark, having said that the last time she took a long nap was in a quiet corner of the lounge! I was wondering about white noise but I don’t know how you stop this being a prop? The paci she got on day two, I am breastfeeding and she seemed to need to suck a lot. She always roots at naptime, I know she’s not hungry since I when I have resorted to feeding her it was so she could suckle. Obviously I don’t want to feed her to sleep so that’s why I’ve persisted with the paci, as she seems to need to suck to wind down.

When I put her down, it can take from 10mins to and hour to get her off to sleep, and if I’m honest I have started to put it off, as I’m thinking well, if she’s only going to have 30 mins anyway, have it towards the end of the 3 hour slot, then at least the E times can stay roughly 3 hours.

I used to agonise over my son's sleep and now he sleeps great, but only because I put the time in I think. I promised myself I wouldn't put myself through the worry again and here I am! It's SO frustrating!

[~Sara~]

Hmmm, first thing I would try doing is getting her to sleep for that first nap sooner.  It looks like she did 1h45 A time--which is what a 4 month old is doing.  10 minutes for a wind down is very, very reasonable...I think the she might need a shorter morning A time (not uncommon) since it took her 50 minutes to settle. 

At 9 weeks, the average A time is ~1h15-1h20.  What if you tried to have her ASLEEP by 8:10/8:15 (so after a 1h10-1h15 A time)?  So, if she wakes at 7, start wind down at 7:55ish--that will give you 10-15 minutes to get her to sleep and I think that you'll be closer to her sleep window then.  We just want to find the right A time for her to get 1.5-2h naps.  We'll start working on the first nap because if she takes an OT first nap, it's hard to catch up.  Let's give this plan a shot for 2-3 days and reassess.  I'm also wondering if she's one of those babies who doesn't start showing sleepy cues until AFTER she's already OT...it does happen.

Re: the white noise...I don't think it's a prop, really.  I think of it more as part of the sleep environment, like turning off the lights, room temperature, etc.  I found that having white noise helped DS out a lot...really might be good for your LO, too, if your son is making noise that you think might wake her up.

At her age, short naps could be habitual...and if you think that's the case, you could try wake to sleep for a few days to see if that makes a difference (see here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0).

What do you think about trying this?

[spodnic]

Thanks for your feedback, that’s great.  I will give it a go. I agree, once the morning nap is compromised the whole day is messed up. Today looked like this:

8.20 Wake and eat
8.35 A
9.15 swaddled, room darkened and wind down
9.35 S but woke after 5 mins, I picked her up and held her till she was sleepy again then put her down, this I repeated 3 more times
10.00 S
10.20 wake, tried for 40 mins to get her back to sleep, she dozed for 15 mins in my arms
11.15 E
11.35 A
12.15 swaddled and wind down
1240 S (went off like a dream!)
1.15 Wake, took 45 mins to get her dozing for 15 mins, again in my arms.
2.15 Wake and eat
2.40 A
3.10 swaddled and wind down
3.45 S in my arms, eventually as she just wouldn’t settle when I kept putting her down. This was her longest nap for about two weeks, but not in her bed   :-{
5.30 E - had to wake her for feed
5.45 A
6.40 E
7.25 S

I know, I should be putting her down more awake, but I think I should try and tackle one problem at a time! Mostly she rouses so she’s aware of her surroundings. At least if I can find the sleep window then I can look at the other issues. Sometimes I just end up doing it so she doesn’t get so overtired it messes the night up too.

My son’s noise doesn’t seem to be bothering her at the moment but I will look at the white noise option. I know when they get older they get more sensitive to noise.

Phew, just a couple of hours to relax. Life with two is HARD for now! I know it will get better but I feel right in the thick of it. Thanks for your help again. Will report back in a couple of days.

Nicola

[~Sara~]

Sounds like she still had an OT day, tbh.  I think it started, again, with the first nap just because she kept waking up and needing to be resettled--that probably pushed her to the OT side, so she took a short nap, and thus it built up throughout the day.

If it helps to know, I don't think you need to be laying her down more awake just yet.  This is where shh/pat is a great tool: you start it on the shoulder, get her drowsy, then use it to transition to the crib, and keep doing it for 20 minutes until she's past the jolts and into the deep sleep phase of the sleep cycle (see here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64161.0).  Now, I know you said that shh/pat doesn't work for her, but is there some other combination that would?  The idea behind shh/pat is that babies can't keep 3 thoughts in their heads and so the shushing and the patting become the focus and not crying.  It's a calming AND a sleep training technique.  I think either giving shh/pat another go, perhaps now that we're zeroing in on her sleep window or you can do a variation, will help a lot to help her stay asleep and assure a good start of her nap.  I know you have another LO to take care of, so it's a bit harder to commit the full 30+ minutes to wind down and sending to sleep...but if it works, she stays asleep, and you don't have to spend another 45 minutes trying to extend her nap, I think that's a good investment

Also, another thing to remember is that when she naps less than 1.5-2h, then her next A time will be much shorter.  At her age, she'll probably only be able to handle a feed, and then back to sleep (~40-50 minutes).

If you think she's going to be OT, why don't we also go ahead and try doing wake to sleep or holding through the jolts?  I recommend trying wake to sleep first for a couple of days and see how that works out.  Here's a link describing both techniques: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

Lastly, she's still very young, so if you need to do some APOP (Accidental parenting on purpose) for a nap every now and then to get her to sleep, that's okay.

[spodnic]

Just an update... we are working on it, have had some very challenging days. Can get a 45 min nap now in the morning if I read her right. At least I'm armed for with some tools to try now. Lately everything's been thrown off again as she's dropped off the weight chart so I am (breast) feeding her every two hours or so to encourage her to have more milk. Finding it so hard with the toddler running round though, I really struggle to get through the day sometimes! I have been doing one nap a day in my arms, where she will go 1 - 1.5hrs, so at least she's not totally sleep deprived.

Can you tell me when's a good age to start putting her down more awake?
Also, I know there's a page on here about weaning from the swaddle, but I can't find it, any thoughts?

Thanks again.

[~Sara~]

I'm sorry that you're having a rough time

At this age (she's 3 months now, correct?), babies start to work on organizing their daytime sleep, and one of the very common issues we see is the 45 minute nap.  But, that also can be a sign of UT so...if you know her A times are good, and she's not a short napper by nature, then the 45 minute naps are probably attributable to that development blip.  They have to learn how to make it through the transition into the next sleep cycle.  Can't say for sure what's going on with your LO (which of those 3 things) or if she's hungry (and won't sleep long)...but if you want, I can take another look at her routine.

When you have 2 LOs, I think that if you have to APOP a nap for a little while, that's okay.  Usually--if there's no prop or routine issues--naps get better around the 6-7 month mark. 

A good age to start putting her down is now, if you're ready.  You might have to take a bit more time doing this as she will need to get used to putting herself to sleep; but really the present is always a good time for independent sleep training

Here's the Props board, which currently has a lot of swaddle weaning threads going on (I couldn't find anything specifically related to swaddle weaning):
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=28.0

HTH a bit...and I really hope you're doing okay *hugs*  If I could, I'd crawl through the computer and come and help you out

[spodnic]

Thanks so much! It really means a lot to have someone to talk to.

Just a question, DH has got 4 straight days off starting Thurs, so I'm going to use the opportunity to really tackle her naps. I'm thinking of either weaning the paci or to start putting her down awake, anything to improve on independent sleep and help her to help herself. Any thoughts what might be the best thing to tackle? Currently I'm putting her down when she's pretty much asleep, so the paci stays in, if she's only nearly asleep the paci will fall out and we have to start over. I've stopped wedging a towel between the side of the cot so there's enough force (just) to keep the paci in (insane I know!). I'm thinking about the gentle removal plan for that, but realise I do need to get her to settle in her cot, as she won't unless very sleepy, and I have to keep picking her up and start again.

Sorry, hope this makes sense, tiredness is making me waffle a bit.