Author Topic: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?  (Read 4852 times)

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jenniewren

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Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« on: January 19, 2010, 13:50:37 pm »
Hi my lo is 10.5 months old, and is a happy easy going baby who is generally pretty content. He is very sociable and is happy to go with most people. He goes to a childminder 2x days a week and has a good attachment to her, and is never concerned when I leave him, but happy to see me when I pick him up.

He occasionally protests when I leave the room in the day, but usually only when he's tired or out of sorts.

In the last couple of months he has started crying & standing when put down to sleep at bedtime. before Christmas I'd sorted this by doing WI/WO, it took a few nights and he was staying lying down and going to sleep on his own within 15-20 minutes. But the last 3 nights he stays quiet when I leave the room for about 5-10 minutes then starts to cry. When I go in, help him to lie down, and then leave again he starts to cry really hard. I tried WI/WO again the first night and he worked himself up into a complete state. It took an hour for him to go to sleep. The last 2 nights I've stayed in the room, the first night he took 1/2 hr to go to sleep, last night was over an hour... :( I had had enough by the time he finally dropped off!!

Is it possible for separation anxiety to manifest itself only at bedtime? My mum reckons that because he's fine at other times, and content with his childminder that it isn't separation anxiety, he's manipulating me so that I stay in the room... I'm just not sure how to deal with it. I don't want to leave him to cry, but staying in his room for an hour waiting for him to go to sleep is not funny at the end of a long day!! Any thoughts?

He is in the middle of the 2-1 transition as well, and I think he stuggles to go to sleep straightaway if he's still asleep after 3pm in the afternoon. Today he's gone down for his pm nap at 1.15pm so hopefully he'll be more ready. He's also just had a top tooth through which has probably contributed - screamed when I touched it etc... :(

Jenx

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 14:15:15 pm »
No Advice, just curious for the answer as this is sort of happening with us also (only 9 months old). {{{Hugs}}}



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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 19:53:26 pm »
HI there Jennie, we for sure have the same kid hehe. 

Quote (selected)
He occasionally protests when I leave the room in the day, but usually only when he's tired or out of sorts.
Finn is the same.  OT and tiredness really affects the level of independent play he will allow and how his SA manifests.  If he's happy he can't be bothered hugging and cuddling, too busy, too much to do.  But if he's tired or upset about something then he hangs off my pant leg.

Quote (selected)
In the last couple of months he has started crying & standing when put down to sleep at bedtime. before Christmas I'd sorted this by doing WI/WO, it took a few nights and he was staying lying down and going to sleep on his own within 15-20 minutes. But the last 3 nights he stays quiet when I leave the room for about 5-10 minutes then starts to cry. When I go in, help him to lie down, and then leave again he starts to cry really hard. I tried WI/WO again the first night and he worked himself up into a complete state. It took an hour for him to go to sleep. The last 2 nights I've stayed in the room, the first night he took 1/2 hr to go to sleep, last night was over an hour... Sad I had had enough by the time he finally dropped off!!
I suspect it's a routine issue more than SA.  If he's UT and doesn't want to sleep, he's not going to take kindly to being put to bed.  If he's OT, he will also protest because he wants more help to get to sleep and literally can't fall asleep.  What is his routine at the moment?

Quote (selected)
Is it possible for separation anxiety to manifest itself only at bedtime? My mum reckons that because he's fine at other times, and content with his childminder that it isn't separation anxiety, he's manipulating me so that I stay in the room... I'm just not sure how to deal with it. I don't want to leave him to cry, but staying in his room for an hour waiting for him to go to sleep is not funny at the end of a long day!! Any thoughts?
Doubtful it would only manifest at bedtime...but I assume not impossible.  LO is just working out cause and effect, the fact that you exist when you are not in the room and he can visualize you, and also distinguishing his wants from his needs.  He WANTS you in the room.  It's not manipulation because they don't know any other way.  He just knows I don't want mummy to leave for reason xyz, please stay mummy. 

Being in the 2-1 makes me think it's a routine issue and things will get better at bedtime once you get to the bottom of it.
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jenniewren

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 22:36:20 pm »
Thnaks for your reply :) :)

We had the same again tonight - it took an hour to go to sleep. I tried WI/WO again cos he was just messing about in his cot while I was in there. But he worked himself up to screaming pitch :( - no way he was going to sleep, & so eventually I got him out of his cot for a brief cuddle to calm him down, put him back, rubbed his back and he went to sleep. So at the moment WI/WO is something he doesn't seem to be able to cope with at the moment... Tmw night I may try staying in when I put him down and not leaving the room at all, as he is relaxed when he goes in the cot, but then I wonder whether stnading and protesting etc wakes him up again.

routine wise I've been aiming for something like this:

6am wake
9.15 - 10am sleep
2-3 sleep
6.45 bedtime

Although today he had 30 mins in the am and then only 40 in the pm.. but generally he has been able to cope with days like that, his naps have not been reliable every day.

In my other post you suggested 2 hr 45 in between naps. so maybe i should aim for..

6am wake
9.15-9.45 sleep
1.30-3 sleep
6.45 bedtime

Historically though he has always coped with 3 hr plus A times even after a short am nap. I've never really shortened A times after short naps...I don't know whether he'd go down or not. Can only try I guess!!

We did have 10 days of him going straight to sleep no problem at bedtime, but this was on a real mixture of days & routine - 2 very bad nap days with his childminder, a couple of normal routine days with me etc etc. This all started on friday night, when he'd had an hour in the morning and an hour in the car in the afternoon- I was trying to make up for bad nap days with childminder (15 minutes all day!). Saturday he had one 2 hour nap in the middle of the day, took half an hour to go to sleep, Sunday and monday he had a 45 min am nap and an hour pm nap. Yet still took an hour at bedtime to settle.

Jenx

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2010, 22:53:29 pm »
Hi there, I would suspect that 4 hours could be too long for his middle A.  He might still do a decent nap after it but then by the time bedtime rolls around he's really OT.

Since his routine is so changeable with daycare etc. you really just have to gauge whether he's getting enough sleep in a 24 hour period and if he might need a 'catch up' day now and then where you might let him do some longer naps.

Just curious why he doesn't sleep at the childminder, do they have set naps or could they work with your routine for a bit?  Just to see if it makes a difference to his bedtime :-)
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jenniewren

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 09:38:23 am »
Ok, I'll try a 30 min nap in the am tomorrow then try putting him down around 3.15-30 hr mark & see if that works better.

The reason I questioned it being OT was that he started it on a day when he'd slept 1hr 10min in the am and I'd driven him in the pm for 1hr 15min to let him catch up a bit. And he'd had a 12 hr night the night before. He's always coped with bad nap days well up to now without them affecting night sleep.

I'm really at a loss as to why he doesn't sleep at the childminders. They are very willing to follow the routine I ask them to, adn it worked at first..often he didn't sleep as long as he does at home but it was enough to get by. But 15 minutes a day is crazy! I would be easily able to settle him if he woke after 15-20 minutes at home, but he has never gone back to sleep for them. It may be that there's just too much going on, several other toddlers etc. Very frustrating.

Yesterday he again refused sleep all morning, they tried several times, eventually crashed about 1pm for 15-20 minutes. I used to be able to get him off at home at 3.30ish when I pick him up but since Christmas he's fought that as well and won't be rocked off. I stayed int he room with him at bedtime last night and he went straight to sleep at 6.15pm. But then he woke at 2.15 and couldn't settle - I didn't want to feed him as he'd been fed at midnight... he just couldn't settle, everytime he'd drop off he'd be awake again within minutes, usually as I tried to creep out of his room. I tried feeding him at 3pm, still didn't go off. In the end at 3.45 I brought him into bed with me and he fell asleep til 6.15. not a good idea I know but we'd gone to bed at midnight, DH gets up at 5.45 and we really needed to get some sleep.

Jenx

jenniewren

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 19:57:00 pm »
Thanks for your help again :) The last 2 bedtimes have been fine - only difference being I stayed in the room, didn't leave at all. Both nights he's been asleep within 10-15 minutes. I think I'll go with a GW approach for now.

No sleep at all at the childminders today despite being obviously exhausted... :( Apparantly screamed and screamed when they tried to put him down. He's also cried/screamed when they've left the room when awake/playing etc downstairs. So perhaps this does have something to do with separation anxiety. But thankfully he went to sleep when I got him home from 3.20-4.20, and then asleep tonight at 7.20pm so hopefully we'll have a better night.

I guess it's just a case of tkaing one day at a time... :-\

Jenx

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 20:30:42 pm »
Hi there, GW is fine :-)  Some kids do well with it; others tend to see it as a game or distraction.  There is no way Finn would sleep with me in the room. 

It's a shame he has a hard time sleeping there at the childminders.  What are the conditions like?  Is he in a dark room etc?

I think just doing what you can to keep some routine on weekends and letting him catch up when he can is the best way to approach. 

Hugs!
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jenniewren

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Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 20:00:58 pm »
I'm not sure whether the room's dark or not, but then at home I have the curtains drawn but no blackout blinds, I did buy some but never got round to fitting them. He sleeps upstairs, which I asked for - some of the others sleep downstairs in travel cots. He has his sleeping bag from home & bunny/dummy etc. He used to settle fine there, just since Christmas it's been a problem. As long as he sleeps when I get home it's not too bad, but 15-20 mins all day is just nowhere near enough.

Tonight was interesting though - I put William into bed and he was very restless, up and down, wouldn't settle. He reminded me of myself when I haven't drunk enough - I get twitchy legs and very restless (weird I know) so I got him a drink & he gulped frantically, lay down himself (never usually does this, I have to do PD) and was asleep in 3 minutes!! I think I may have discovered something here!!

Jenx

jenniewren

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 09:27:40 am »
Hi Wendy

I've managed to keep to a much more consistent routine the last couple of weeks - making sure he has 2 naps a day for definite, working to the following routine

6am wake
9.15-10am sleep
1.30-2.30 ish sleep - usually between 1 & 1.5hrs
6.45pm bedtime, asleep by 7pm

That works out as an 11 hr night plus around 2 hrs day sleep. I find as long as he has at least an hours day sleep his nights stay ok.

2 issues though - just wondering if you have any thoughts.

One is the fact he's still not sleeping at the childminders. They even tried in the buggy yesterday to APOP but as soon as they leave the room he's awake. Or if they manage to leave the room he wakes 15 minutes later. And that's put down at the right time - he goes to sleep fine, it's staying asleep that's the problem. When he was tiny he had an exaggerated moro reflex & he still jumps a lot when falling asleep. The more tired he is, the more dramatic the jolts are. Do you think this could be the problem? Or separation anxiety? He is definitley more aware of where we are and of leaving the room etc. Bedtimes are variable at the mo, I can have a run of perfect bedtimes no matter what's happened napwise for 2 weeks, and then suddenly he'll cry really hard when I leave and I have to stay.

Also we sometimes have nights when he wakes at 2isham and really struggles to go back to sleep. Tuesday night he woke at 2am, had a BF then didn't settle when I put him back. Every time I crept out of the room he woke up again. I even tried bringing quilt etc into the room so I could sleep on the floor but still wouldn't settle. eventually I resorted to my bed just to get some sleep, he took a while to settle even then. I know NW are supposed to be due to OT but he had had a run of good nap days - he was off with me last week due to chest infection and so had a good routine with lots of day sleep (needed cos of illness I know but good nonetheless). Why else would this be happening?

I keep following your threads re Finn & 2-1, as you are just a little ahead of us  :P He looks like a he's a star!
Jenx

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 15:02:40 pm »
Hmm it could be SA I suppose, we have had some mild SA only and not manifesting at sleep times so I don't have a lot of experience with it. 

I'm going to see if we can get some other eyes on this one  :)

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 14:43:18 pm »
Hi Jennie,
Just had a read through. Interestingly enough my LO went through this SA type behaviour between 10-12 months but his would only manifest at naptimes - night time was fine. He would scream like you describe and it was grim :(
Looking back now I know for us it was to do with cutting molars AND starting 2:1. I spent 2 months trying so hard to figure out what was wrong with the routine but because teeth were an issue I could never get it right. He was always either OT or UT - usually OT.
I could not work out why it was only really bad at naptimes and the advice I got was it was routine based but it did not really resolve until his molars cut through and we cut the am nap quite a bit.
We ended up having to stay with him until he fell asleep for naps, he just would go crazy if we left the room. Wiwo was not an option at the time. It was very stressful but eventually after 2 months when I knew he was fine I did do wiwo and it worked but it took a long time!
So...GW




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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2010, 14:45:31 pm »
Sorry - pressed wrong button!
So...GW sounds like the best plan to me if you need a gentle approach. We could not even do this as he just would not let us out of the room but it works for many lo's. I just had to wait until it all calmed down and then wiwo was fine.
Hope this is of some help. Let me know if I can help any more :)
Becky x




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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2010, 15:01:15 pm »
Just seen your other post...makes me even more sure it is teeth related. xxx




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jenniewren

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Re: Separation Anxiety at bedtime only?? Is this possible?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2010, 16:38:33 pm »
Thanks for your reply :) It's good to hear others have had similar experiences... I'll make sure he has calpol/nurofen as soon as he wakes for a few nights & see if that helps. I can deal with it if there's a reason!

Jenx