Sign Language gone wrong????

[Mashi]

DH and I are starting to debate if signing with DS was a mistake.  Well, ok, not a mistake, but that if something went "wrong" along the way.

He's OBSESSED with his signs, desperate to learn more, wants to know EVERY word he comes across in sign language, how to say it and so on.

But the boy won't speak.  He is reducing his babbling more and more, and even now his mammas and daddas he refuses to say with his mouth and instead says with his fingers.  When we babble at him, like for instance when changing his nappy, he gets VERY upset and shrieks his head off.  If we say words in exaggerated tones to get him to mimic us he either goes shy, slaps me, cries, or runs away - just depends on his mood.  But is obsessed with signing.

So I know all of the research says that babies who sign are supposed to speak faster because they learn the value of communicating, but does anyone have any experience with the latter? In signing actually reducing the desire to speak or the ability to speak?  I suppose if he was still babbling or TRYING to talk I'd be okay, but over the past while, he's babbling less and less and really trying to build up his sign language.  We took his signing picture books away and we don't teach any new signs to him anymore, and are really reducing OUR use of signing with him in an effort to get him off of it and onto speaking, but other than that, I'm not really sure what to do?

Anyone been in this position before?

[~emmalou~]

Hey hun, hugs, I have no great advice but my aunty had this problem.  Her DS refused to talk and wanted to sign all the time.  I think she just decided to reduce the signing and keep pushing for the speech, unsure how she did it, sounds like the kind of way you are trying now xxx He does speak ok now

That must be so tough and frustrating so huge hugs from me

[Roseii]

Hey, I think it's amazing that he signs so well. I never learnt any of them except "no" from my sister, but DD says and signs it. My sister did them all with my niece and for a while she hardly said a word, even my mum was worried that because of the signing she wasn't talking, then all of a sudden she was saying everything! (She is nearly 2 now)
Could you perhaps really encourage him to say the word AND sign, that's what my sis did. And we would all encourage her to SAY thank you when she was signing it etc...
Sorry I don't have any experience myself. I guess it would just be a shame to lessen the signing when he communicates so well with it. Oh and I am no expert but I don't think it's overly worrying that he doesn't speak at 18m, my nephew barely said a word before he was 2, then all of a sudden he talked like a flipping adult! Seriously he talked better than any other 2 year old I have met, having barely uttered a squeak prior to that.
Oh one more thing, could you maybe look into ordering some DVDs from Amazon or similar with songs on etc that might get him interested in vocalising?
HTH good luck xxx

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

I also don't have any direct experience with this one!  But I'll toss in my 2 cents as a former signing baby (my older brother was deaf). 

I can totally understand being concerned that he's not babbling or trying to talk, etc.  But he IS working on communication through his signing.  Lots of kids aren't talking much at this age, particularly those who like to get things right before they start doing them.  So the fact that he's signging and wanting to learn more signs at least gives him an outlet to communicate if he's not quite ready to speak.  I'd try to give it time and relax.  There really isn't a good reason the signing would hinder his speaking. He'll talk when he's ready and until then you can save a lot of frustration using the signing. 

That said, if you're really concerned I can see not teaching new signs, but I wouldn't ignore the signs he does use since you don't want him to feel like he has no means of communication while he's improving his speaking.  Then you'll just have one very frustrated LO on your hands!

 

[Mashi]

I wouldn't ignore the signs he does use since you don't want him to feel like he has no means of communication while he's improving his speaking.

No, we aren't at all ignoring the signs he does use, we are just doing what we always did with saying the word when he signs it, and saying it to get him to mimic us.  We are just not going to teach him any new ones, I think.

I guess when he was babbling it wasn't a problem, but he is now refusing to babble at all even. it really feels like a regression as far as speech goes, kwim?

[Shiv52]

I have always wondered about this.  In my experience and from any reading that I've done its not necessarily that a child who signs will speak quicker (although I know singing classes push this!) but that the signs will not hold them back and in the mean time give them a way to communicate.  That being said I can see how if you have a very effective communication system in signing how it might seem like whats the point in speaking.    

We did a lot of signing and picture exchange in my work (bear in mind it was LOs with special needs) and parents were often concerned that it would stop speech developing.  One thing I always had a debate with our speech therapist in school was how to encourage better communication and keep raising the bar.  So we had taught one LO to sign for different foods, then sign and say the word, then sign the sentence and say one word, then say the whole sentence.  So by the end of the term he was able  to say 'Siobhan can I have an apple please?'.  So in my mind this was my expectation and I didn't expect anything less once I knew he'd mastered that.  The speech therapist on the other hand still accepted 'apple' as she said he was still communication and in the end he got really lazy with her and just didn't bother using sentences.  Well really what was the point, when he was going to get what he wanted anyways without all the extra effort!   So i can see in mini-mashi's case signing gets him what he needs so whats the point in doing anything else.  

With mini-mashi I think he finds signing SO effective and gets all his needs met so well and it must be frustrating to have such an effective communicator but for none of it to be in words.  I wouldn't stop signing with him just yet.  He's still young enough not to be worried about speech development.  And from reading your posts about mini-mashi I think he's waiting until he can just start talking in sentences before he starts speaking.  

Can you give him the opportunity to extend his signing with some sort of a sound or will he lose it?  

So he signs for a biscuit.  Can you put it up high and say 'oh no its way up there, right help mummy get it?  I'll lift you up....say 'up' and then if he makes any noise, say 'yeah UP' and lift him up and then say ok we have to stretch to reach it, lets say 'stretchhhhhhhhhhh' and see will he make a noise again.  So not so much pressure on saying 'biscuit' but on saying things in the process of getting the biscuit.   Does that make sense?  Or play blowing up a balloon and only blow it a little bit and get him to say 'blow' each time and then let 'go' so you can let it go so it can fly around the room?  I think with mini mashi you'll have to get creative and encourage him to make sounds for things he doesn't have signs for.  As he's too clever and knows you are trying to tell him signing not enough any more and to get on with the words and he's thinking 'yeah right'.  

Will he respond to choices?  That really helped words come here. So if I was tickling Maeve I'd say I'm going to get your .....' and then after a while when she's really into it and I'll say what will I tickle.  She used to just point to the body part but now she says the word.  Or if he signs for bread, can you hold up two slices and say 'which one do you want? this one or that one?' with the expectation being he points and said 'this one' eventually.  

I would also look at other times you can encourage speech.  Just thinking Maeve used to pull me by the hand when she wanted me to go anywhere until I lost the will to be dragged about and used to stop and get down on her level and say 'say come on mummy'.  Originally she'd just shout and point and I'd let on she said it as she was making some noise!  But now she'll come and say 'c'mon mummy, kitchen'.    You could also stop at the front door before you go out and say 'open' and get him to repeat (any sound will do initially).  Building words into routine (which am sure you do) is meant to help them become established quicker.


Any of that make sense?  I once met a little boy (they had queried autism but in the end he was fine) and he was 2.5 and had never uttered a word.  He just dragged his mum about and pointed at everything and she said he was like a mute. He'd a lot of signs as well. A mum I worked for asked me if I would meet them and play with him and see what I thought and if I could offer any suggestions.  I met and played with him for about 2 hours and by the end of the session he had said about 15 different words!   His mum was amazed.  But it was kind of like he needed someone to tell him there was a new expectation for communication.  I started with doing a puzzle he loved and held all the pieces and when he grabbed for them I just held it up and said 'piece'.  Took a couple of attempts for him to stop grabbing and repeat and then after about 5 repeats he then said 'piece' for the last few pieces on his own.  Then we did some swings.  So gave him a swing so he was really into it and then stopped still holding him and said say 'swing' and the minute he made a sound I said 'yeah swing' and on it went.    Am wondering if mini-mashi needs a bit of a push although he's a bit young yet to really push hard.   

Huge {{{hugs}}} Mashi.  He really will get there.   I think your best bet is to think of some new/fun activites that he doesn't have signs for and see can you encourage him to use a sound for getting you to keep going with it and just keep going with the signing in the meantime.

HTH!

[Mashi]

Thank you so much for all of that info Shioban!! 

Everything you have said above, we do. All of the language modelling and so on, like with the biscuit example, the tugging me to go places and what not.   Generally, his reaction is to freak out - either cry, screech, or throw a fit.  Grrrr.

The example you gave me about the boy who you went to play with is where I think we are now.  That he needs someone to tell him there is a new expectation for communication.  We don't have anyone else, really, as you know, which gets me in a bind.   He does need a "push" but I'm wary of pushing too hard and it backfiring...it's trying to find the "right" thing to do, and I'm not sure what that is.  You know?

I know boys often talk later than girls, and that many LOs are not speaking by 18 months, and all of that.  But there is also a gut instinct in me that tells me it is MORE than that.  Part of it is his total addiction to signing, and also there is something about the look on his face when we are encouraging him to speak and what not. Like he totally shuts up shop and is being VERY clear that he wants nothing to do with talking.  He makes no attempt whatsoever to make sounds or noises. 

OK -- actually, there is ONE thing he has started this past week, and I don't know if it "counts" or not (pardon the pun).  He's started counting, but only by saying "uh, uh, uh." For instance, put his toast on his tray in the morning and he points to each one and says "uh, uh, uh" as if to say "1, 2, 3!"  But he also might be saying "same" - because this is the same thing he does at dinner when he is having the same meal as us: points to his own and says "uh" and then to DH's and says "uh." So he points and says "uh, uh" ... so he could very well be pointing to his toasts and saying "same!"  That may not sound as clear in writing as if I could demonstrate.  This is the ONLY attempt at language he has made. And perhaps because we have never taught him the signs for either (same or numbers)? 

I don't know, it's just something in me that feels it's MORE than being a boy who isn't ready to speak. I feel like there is something else going on. 

Receptive language skills are great.  I did some reading on how some LOs appear to know what is going on because they know several nouns and you think they understand but really they are only getting a key noun.  We've paid a LOT of attention to what he is understanding and are often baffled - I'm sure other LOs understand as much as he does but because he doesn't speak, it makes it seem like it's more.  The other day I turned towards DH and said "his car garage is dirty, remind me to wipe it when he's napping" - did not say it to DS, did not know he was listening, he was on the other side of the room. He ran into the kitchen and got a towel and got his garage out (we were not playing with it, it was near his toy box) and started wiping it off.  I've got loads of examples of that kind of thing, which makes me believe his receptive language skills are spot on. So afaik there is no issue there.

Anyway, lots of rambling...but you seem to have lots of experience with this and really value your input!!

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Glad Shiv has some great input for you.

I hear you on the Mommy gut instinct, that's very powerful.  How's your pediatrician over there?  Is there anyone in the medical field you might be able to contact?  Any way to get him evaluated or even set up for some services if they think it's necessary?  Not sure how things work where you are....

[Mashi]

Our paed is great, and we have good health insurance so whatever services there are would be covered and what not, but there would not be anything in English - anyone we found would potentially speak English, but there are no specifically English or bilingual services locally enough to be useful. Unfortunately.