A chronically overtired baby napping and night sleeping poorly

[helenloe]

My 8 month old is constantly over tired.  She has been a mess for a while now and I feel I need something to break this vicious circle.  She went from taking a decent morning and afternoon nap (+ catnap) to 30 min max for each.  She has had a problem with waking early since she was 4 months old. She is so good she just lies awake in her cot, making it very difficult to monitor her night time wakings.  She only really cries out when she can't put herself back to sleep because she is just too tired.

Typical day
7pm bed (varies by 20 minutes each side)
wake between 4 and 5:30 - (I think?) She does nap but until 7, but erratically
7am -Milk/breakfast
8.00-9.00 - 30 minute nap (sometimes she can out herself back to sleep for a while)
11:45 lunch (but more often than not too tired for this and just goes back to sleep with milk)
12:30/1:00 20-30 minute nap in crib. Sometimes could be convinced to sleep another 20-30 minutes
2:00 Milk
3pm cranky,
4pm cranky, sleeping for 20 minutes (cries when I put her down at this time of day)
5:00dinner (getting difficult to give this as too tired)
6-6:30 bath, milk
7pm-ish bed. (have tried moving this earlier due to over tired baby)

Since she is so tired all the time, she can't get any good rest, no matter what I do.  I have tried driving her through naps (maybe could get 35 - 40 minutes of sleep)

I don't know what time I would even try wake to sleep, since her wake-ups are in the same time frame but not exact and she lies awake quietly so we often don't hear her.   She is always extremely tired by 6 or 6:30am and by the time she wakes up she is already overtired.

I know I need to alter her schedule but I don't know how.  Watching for signs of tiredness is useless because she is ALWAYS tired. This is now effecting her eating too.

I'm so confused and sure I'm just making things worse.  Please help my sad baby!
   

[becky1969]

Not sure what you mean by "she's already tired by 6:30 am", but you don't actually have her waking until 7?  Do you *really* think she's awake from 4 until 7 am?  I guess I'm just confused as to what you think is going on between 4 and 7 am.  Have you gone in to observe her? Or what are you basing your information on?

[helenloe]

Sorry to be confusing.....I think she is sleeping very badly/fitfully at night, although she is just lying in her cot trying to get back to sleep and not crying to let me know she is awake.  I think that from whatever time in the morning (I know she is awake as I hear her thrashing and sometimes chatting but not sure from what time) she naps until I get her up.  If my husband is up at 6am, sometimes she is asleep, sometimes awake.  I know she has been awake at some point before this though as I have often heard her (e.g heard her at 4.40am the other morning).  I have been trying to leave here there in the hope she will sleep until 7.  On nights where I have slept soundly, I think she has slept all the way, but her overtiredness is evidence she hasn't.  We have also borrowed a video monitor and when I woke at 2.10am the other night she was thrashing in her cot...she continued this for at least an hour. I don't think this is uncommon.

I am now at the point where I have a crying, irritable, not eating baby, changed from a gorgeous, chatty, sociable girl.  She is napping in 20 - 30 minute snatches during the day, waking and lying there quietly (looking glazed trying to go to sleep again.  She rarely manages this during the day though and I eventually get her up)...it is only when I go and check on her I realise she is awake.  Up until now, I have been under the impression she has sleeping beautifully during the day, but on observation she isn't.

I really don't know what to do as I feel we are nearing meltdown and at 8 months the problems emerging are so difficult to change.

[becky1969]

I'm not sure of the thrashing around is just normal mobility stuff or is something else.  It's possible that she's restless at night due to poor days.  It's also possible that she has some food sensitivities and is having problems with her introduction to solids.  However, I'd expect more crying if that were the case.  Since she's quiet just thrashing around, I think it's probably a combo of new mobility stuff and not sleeping well during the day.

Babies wake up on and off all night.  That is normal.  They usually just put themselves back to sleep, esp. if they've been independent sleepers for awhile (which it sounds like she has been).  I'm not surprised you hear her between 4:30-5 because that's 9-10 hours after going to bed and that's when a light sleep phase happens.  With really OT babies they'll wake up all the way at that point, causing an EW.  Sounds like your LO rolls around a bit but eventually goes back to sleep.  I don't care how good of a temperment she has, you just won't see a baby lay there for 2.5 hours without calling out for mom!    So she *must* go to sleep sometime between 4:40 and 7 am when you get her up.



So, let's work on getting her daytime sleep better and we'll see if that nighttime sleep gets better.  Also watch for some new mobility skills coming out.  That may be what she's working on at night! 

At 8 months old we usually see about 3 hours of A time.  Let's start there and see how she does.  This is an age where mom's keep their kids on a 6 month routine (2-2.5 hours A time) b/c LOs show sleepy signs out of habit at this age.  So going by cues isn't necessarily the best way to go at this point.

Also, let's have you go in and wake her at 7 so that we know at least when she opens her eyes in the morning.  We can't control when she was awake in the night, but we can only work with her first awake time of the day.

7 am wake (you wake her)

Nap 1 10-11:30 (hopefully!)

Nap 2 2:30-4:00 (hopefully!)


7 pm Bedtime


Let's try this out.  I don't expect it to work right away, so stick with it for 2-3 days.  You can let me know what happens right away though! And I'll hold your hand thru the rough spots.

[helenloe]

Many thanks.  The last few days have been terrible, but I think(hope) she is teething.  She has not eaten anything for 3 days, other than milk, and has taken to crying when I put her in her cot and waking crying in the night (particularly after going to bed in early evening - last night 3 times before 11pm).  This is totally out of character for her as at night she would sleep solidly until at least we went to bed and she loves going to bed so much, she wasn't happy until I put her down at night.

I know I have an OT baby, so should I just try her 3 hour A routine as you suggested, despite the fact that I know she needs naps earlier in the day? I guess as she is OT I have missed her tired cues!  Also, should I be trying this even when I know she is totally out of sorts?

Thanks and I will let you know how  things go.

[becky1969]

If she's teething, I'd try 2h45 perhaps. 

She's probably tired mostly out of habit.  We need to stretch her as I think you putting down early is causing short naps b/c she's UT.  Then after a couple of short naps she's OT b/c not enough sleep! So we really need to push that A time into a reasonable zone for her age.

[helenloe]

Thanks...I will give it a go.  I am worried she is looking so terrible (dark circles and red rimmed eyes) and constantly rubbing eyes, looking glazed etc.  In fact, I think she is more and more tired every time I get her up in the morning.  She isn't eating anything either, which could be linked to teeth, but she doesn't eat when she is tired too.  I guess this will also affect her sleeping.

If I do give her activity time as you suggested, what do I do when she wakes early from naps (which is most of the time, even when she has been up a couple of hours)? She tends to wake at 25mins, either thrash her legs and resettle for maybe another 25 mins or doesn't resettle and wakes fully, lying in her cot trying to sleep again.

If she were to wake at say 10.30am (after first nap at 10am ) do I then keep her up until 2.30? I think I would really struggle to give her lunch as she would be so tired and I doubt she would last without sleep until then?  When she does wake early, I have tried to resettle her, but I am unsure as to how long I should be trying this for?  Do I try to resettle her for the length her nap should be, then get her up, or do I let her sleep on if she does settle?
Oh...and she is always awake when I go in and get her up at 7...so I can't work out what time she is awake from, therefore making it hard to establish what time her first nap should be.  How do I solve that?
Sorry for the string of questions!

Many thanks

[<Catherine>]

Hi Helen, I just wanted to give you some encouragement as a month ago I had a similar baby (not nearly as bad but similar issues) and with help from the guys on this site I now have a baby that sleeps 11 hours at night and take 2 naps, each usually an hour and a half. Amazing!

She's probably tired mostly out of habit.  We need to stretch her as I think you putting down early is causing short naps b/c she's UT.  Then after a couple of short naps she's OT b/c not enough sleep! So we really need to push that A time into a reasonable zone for her age.

My thoughts were exactly the same as yours so when I was told this I too thought how on earth can I get him to go longer between naps when he already seems too tired. But I did what I was advised to do (even though secretly I thought they were mad!!) and they were completely right. I saw a huge improvement in a couple of days, it may take longer as it sound like your baby is sooo OT but stick with it. Good luck, I really hope things get better for you. x

[helenloe]

Thank you so much for this encouragement.  I really need it.  I am starting a routine today and have really pushed her activity time out to nearly 3 hours.  What did you do when your baby woke early from naps? I think this is where I have got myself into a pickle, because she started life as a napper, and I get confused as to when I should giver her the next sleep, which has led to lots of small naps, therefore always tired.

How old if your baby?  can you give me a break down of his new day.

Thanks again

[<Catherine>]

He's 8 and a half months now, his routine (on a day that goes to plan) is this:-

(Awake 7.00)
E  Bottle 7.30
E  Breakfast 8.30
A  7.00 - 10.00
S  10.00 - 11.30 (on a good day)

(Awake 11.30)
E   Lunch 12.00
E   Bottle 2.00
A   11.30 - 2.30
S   2.30 - 4.00

(Awake 4.00)
E   Bottle 4.30
E   Dinner 6.00
E   Bottle before bed
A   4.00 - bedtime, usually around 7.30 - 8.00

His feeds are not necessarily how they should be, but if I do it any differently he tends to refuse his solids.

He still wakes early from naps, he gets to that 45 min mark in the am nap and it's 50/50 whether he'll wake then or go back to sleep. In the beginning I tried to get him back to sleep and it really was a battle, I think I achieved it once or twice so I don't generally bother now unless he wakes crying and if i get to him quick he goes straight back to sleep with a little soothing. If he had a short am nap I would reduce the next A time by about half an hour, I found in the beginning that he would then have a longer pm nap to make up for the shorter am nap. It doesnt quite work like that now but he just seems to cope with what he does nap wise really. If he has a shorter am nap i reduce the next A time if i think he needs it but to be honest he doesnt seem to too much. If the pm nap is also short then I try and get a cat nap in otherwise its too long for him to go until bedtime, or bring bedtime forward. I find though that sometimes he thinks this catnap is bedtime and gets into a deep 'night' sleep (like yesterday!) so have to wake him. The best thing for us is a short car trip so he has a little nap but not a deep sleep, it just seems to have worked that ive needed to be going somewhere at the right times which is good!

I'm not sure others would agree with me saying this but it seems to work better for us if I keep the A time the same even if he's had a short nap, otherwise he doesnt seem to nap so long for the next one either (as he's not tired enough i guess) and, like you say, you are back to square 1 with lots of short naps.

U've been typing this for ages, kept stopping to look after DS and for a phone call, so hope it makes sense and I haven't rambled on too much!

Hope this helps a bit x

[km13]

Hi there, Im relatively new to this site...I have 4month old(in one weeks time) and her behavior is almost the same in her OTness. She has began this week to cry everytime I put her in her cot to sleep-whereas before she would slowly put herself to sleep. I end up resorting to The Dummy to get her to quiet up as she is just keeping herself awake crying and gets more frustrated in the process.Sometimes she refuses dummy and gets very upset so I end up taking her out and she stays happy and awake for another few hours until we repeat the process at next nap time.  As a result she has a short nap-sometimes I can shush her back to sleep and sometimes she goes back to sleep herself. Her appetite is good and I've got her on 4hr routine from this week. Could she be teething as she has had most of the symptoms for a while now or is this just one o those phase things?

[becky1969]

km13, can you start a new post with your question? I have a feeling your situation may be a *bit* different, and we like to make sure that members can find topics they can relate to.

When you make your new post, include your baby's current routine in EAS format.  It's OK if every day is different right now; just give me yesterday if that's the case.  Sometimes the weird days are more informative than the 'normal' days! 

[huby]

hello, sorry to jump in too, but seems like some good advice. Just wondered, as my LO is nearly 8 months and was doing well for four days on 1.5 hour naps, 3 hour A time, and then we just had a bad night because of tummy ache and are back to EW, OT baby and poor naps.
Not sure what to sort first?
If she EW do I still stretch her first A time to at least 9am so she doesn't compensate her night sleep with the am nap - though she gets OT bigtime and wakes after 30 mins? I really thought I had it cracked for the first time ever, but alas it seems not...again sorry to jump in. Just looking for some suggestions as our situation is similar.