My 78th post about EWs

[LucySol]

ok,so if bedtime is 7.30 after a 1.5 nap what time does he wake in the morning?

[anna*]

5.30

[LucySol]

so thats 11.5 altogether? so if you think he needs to do 1.5 nap but with 10hrs at night then bedtime needs to be 8.30 to get a 6.30 wakeup? Are you willing to push to get to that time? for me that wouldnt be an option.

you know i think if it was me i would stick to 45 min nap,push thru OT,you go to bed early,expect some EW but dont give in to getting him up till 6.30,and go with it till he comes thru the other end.yes he will be crabby but he will get used to it.

[anna*]

I think he needs more sleep than 11.5hrs in 24, that's just what he's getting. How long do you think it will take to see some improvements sticking to the 45 mins nap? How long do I stick with it before I decide if it's helping?

[grace annes mommy]

hi anna. just wanted to drop off some HUGS. i've noticed alot of your posts over time about EWs. they must be so rough. i personally do NOT function in the hour of 5, no matter how much sleep i've had, getting up at that time ruins my day.

do you think stan is hardwired to start his day around 5:30? i know that some kids just naturally have that early rhythm, no matter what we try to change it. i know that's not what you want to think about, but just wondering if you think it's a possibility.

i had a thought about his good morning clock. not sure if it'll help you or not. but i was thinking, you could set it so the sun would for sure be on when he woke up - say 5:30. then make a huge deal about how he was quiet til the sun came up for a couple days. then every day or 2 setting the clock to 'wake up' later and later, continuing with tons of praise to let him know how pleased you are.  so basically, your pushing the amt. of time he's expected to stay in his room quietly gradually.  i'm thinking this might help the whole concept *click* for him, without expecting him to stay in his room playing for an hour all at once. 

just trying to think of ways you can cope with that early start.  but i do hope a nap tweak, or his molars out are your solution.

hang in there! we're here for you.

[anna*]

Thanks so much for the support and hugs. I do think he's hardwired to start the day early, but I have to rewire him. Over the last 17 months or so the most common wake up time by FAR has been 5.30am. It's like, that's the time he wakes up and the times when he's waking later are a 'blip'. I thought we had cracked it though, at the beginning of December he started sleeping til 7 and it lasted 6 weeks. So it's pretty disheartening to be dealing with it YET AGAIN.

Your idea about the clock is great, was thinking about something like that myself. When he was sleeping later in the morning he was always sleeping until the sunshine was awake and got loads of praise for it. My confusion is in what happens when (as it will inevitably happen) he wakes up before the sunshine (even if it is just 5 mins before) and then cries for the remaining 5 mins. Hm I don't know how to articulate this. Do I just leave it at that time in the hope that one day maybe he will stay quiet? I just cannot see it happening. He wakes up and if he sees the moon he immediately starts to cry. I don't know why, because before Christmas he could play for a few mins, but not any more.

[grace annes mommy]

hmm. it is tricky since he's crying right away.  but i would say, yes, leave it at whatever time you've gotten to, and he will one day make it to that time and not cry. then you can praise praise praise and keep moving the clock forward. 
can you call to him and remind him to get a book and read til the sun comes up? or would this upset him more?
i'm just thinking that if you are very very consistent, but also moving very gradually, that he will learn that it's ok if the moon is there - i'll just look at books, mommy will be in soon.  since you're moving the clock back slowly, at first it should be very short amts. of time he's in bed. i think this will reassure him that everythings ok, and his endurance will build as the time is gradually moving forward.

[anna*]

can you call to him and remind him to get a book and read til the sun comes up? or would this upset him more?

Yeh, that's what I do right now, doesn't even seem to register with him.

[sherry lynn]

**hugs hugs**


Still think it's teething here. 6 weeks is a long time to be getting something right. I don't think he would have lasted that long if he is permanently hardwired for a 5:30 wake up.  I think his sleep is just very very delicate and the slightest thing spins him into OT. But, I truly truly hope this works for you. I know you need it to.

[anna*]

But if it's teething, medication should fix it. But it doesn't. And if it is teething, what do I do in the meantime to stop it from becoming an ingrained thing again. After a 2hr nap, he can't still be OT at bedtime, yet I'll get an EW the next day, so was it UT? ((((hugs)))) sorry I sound so confrontational sherry, I'm just in a horrible mood today.

[sherry lynn]

**hugs* I understand you being in a horrible mood. I would be too.

The only thing that helped us, was just let him sleep. Even if I got an EW the next day, at least I know he had a good nap the day before.

You know that Lyle and I have been on the EW train most of his life too. We were hovering at 11.5 total hours of sleep, just like you about a month ago. I was convinced that his sleep needs dropped until one night he was just soooo grumpy that I put him to bed an hour early. I said to myself that I didn't care if he woke at 4. He needed to go to sleep, and I went to sleep early that night as well. And he had the best night's sleep he had had in almost 6 months. An early bedtime has never really worked for Lyle before.

We are know at about 12-12.5 hours of total sleep. Which seems about right for Lyle. He wakes happy, and willing to stay in his room. When he wakes OT, he is NEVER willing to stay in his room.

I just can't help but think it's OT because Stan as always been slightly higher in sleep needs then Lyle. So, I really would put him at about 13-13.5 hours of total sleep.
He would be happy, and functioning well if he was getting his sleep needs meet.

I know that EW stink, stink stink. BUT. And OT early waking is much worse than an UT early waking, at least in my house it is. It makes the difference between a very frustrating morning and an ok, I'm tired, but I can cope morning.

To add to the weirdness of Lyle's sleep right now.
As I told you, I've decided that I'm not waking Lyle from his naps anymore (at least for now). For the most part he has been regulating this himself. Since he is sleeping more at night, his naps seem to be right around 1h30-1h40m. But, the other day he slept 2h20m. He seems to do this about once a week. Last week I put him to bed about 15 min later because I figured I was going to get an EW. Well, I put him to bed later and I still got an EW. So this week I still put him to bed at 7:30 and he woke at 6:15 the next morning.    Now, he didn't fall asleep until about 8, but the previous week he didn't fall asleep until 8:20 and was still up at 5:15.

I don't know if it's teething (we still have two molars to go, and he is showing all the signs)
Or if it's because it's winter time.
Or if it's developmental. We are still working on talking here. 

But, he's sleep has totally changed (for now) Since they are similar ages and Stan is teething too, I can't help but think that he just needs more sleep.

I've seen other moms write that. And I've always said to myself. WHAT!!!! Teething always means horrible, yucky nasty sleep here. But, for the first time, with these molars, it just seems to be the case for us.

Oh, I forgot to add. (sorry this is getting long)
I'm still sticking with the 5.5 hours of A time in the morning. That was a tip we got on the other thread you had awhile back, and that really does seem to be helping.
Yesterday I had forgotten what time he woke. I always write it down, but DH was sleeping in the bedroom. He's on nights and I miscalculated by 10 min.
Lyle is still so touchy, that he took an OT nap   Just by me putting him down 10 min to late. But, since he's in this weird cycle I didn't push him to a 13 hour day, or his normal bedtime. Like I normally would. I put him to bed early last night, by 30 min. And he slept almost 12 hours last night. 

I'm not saying give up what you are doing right now. Give it as long as you think he can take it, to see if you can push through it. But..... my gut is really telling me that he's not ready to drop down to 45 min naps. I feel like most LO really do follow a basic pattern. Those that went to one nap earlier, are dropping their nap earlier, and Stan was right in the middle of all that. And only Helen is at limiting Harrison's sleep to 45 min. Even Eloys is letting Jarrah sleep as much as he needs when he DOES nap. Because he needs to catch up. I think that Stan has always struggled with bad naps making him OT at Nursery and cutting all of his naps at 45 min, is just so much for a little guy.

I know when I cut Lyle's nap down - it did take awhile for it to work   So I don't know how long you should give it. How long as it been so far?

[anna*]

It's been a week trying a shorter nap.

The trouble is Sherry, I need a plan. I don't do well with winging it, or trying to figure out what A time should be after what length of nap. I need a plan which says - this long nap, this time bedtime. Stan doesn't (touch wood) do OT naps any more. Regardless what A time I put him down, he will just sleep and sleep for his nap. He will easily sleep 2 hours or more at home (at nursery he rarely does more than 1 hour). And then I don't know how to figure out what time to put him to bed.

If I were going to do 5.5hrs A time in the morning, he has to wake up at 7. If he wakes up at 5.30am on a nursery day, he is going to have 7hrs A time before his nap, there is nothing I can do about that, and then again, I am clueless about what time bedtime.

Basically, I can never tell whether he is overtired, undertired, or what. He is not really noticably more crabby after a short night than after a long one - he is 2, so everything is pretty much a battle. However long or short a night he has he wakes up crying. I just feel like I can't tell what he is 'telling' me, and everything I do is wrong.

[anna*]

Oh I forgot to add - I've set his 'sunshine' to come on at 5.30 as per suggestion. IF he wakes up after the shunshine, I'll give tons of praise and reset it for 5.35am. So, I'd better think about getting to bed myself

The days are so freaking long and boring when he wakes up so early!!

[sherry lynn]

Sorry to frustrate you even further.

You do have a plan. You are working on it. I'll let these other fine ladies continue to help you regarding how your plan works out.

I seem to be in the minority with thinking he is OT anyways.

*big hugs* I hope you get it sorted soon.

[anna*]

Ah sherry, I didn't mean it to sound how it obviously came out. My current plan isn't working, so I got nothing.